straw poll, who would buy Alpha Omega if avail in the US, priced below an F16?

Yes
No

If I could get one of the two DVD's Darryl sent to work on my Asian machines with damned American software, I'd love to vote.

Re: DVD formats
#62982 - 12/09/05 11:05 AM
I've tried on both Dell & Toshiba laptops, a Sony dvd player and my PS2 and had no luck at all. There must be a specific codec used when recording the dvd. I need to know that codec so I can download and install it on my PC.

Yes, I would much rather buy a Production F14 than make a mishmash home F14!!

I got a "You didn't vote for anything" message when attempting to vote.

Now here's my situation: I want to sell everything I own, buy a nice cruising boat and go sail around the world....

If I were staying put I'd have already called Darryl and placed an order

See, this is how threads get off track.
Now I want to ask what kind of cruising boat and I want to ask WHY you want to sail around the world.

But I won't, because that has nothing to do with this thread.

Problem is I am CURIOUS.

Darryl’s DVD would not play on my TV DVD player but worked great on my Dell 470 Workstation.
Very impressive little boat. What is most appealing about the Alpha Omega F14 is the way the boat appears to be effortless to handle. This boat seems to work with the skipper instead of against him. The workmanship appears to be first class, very nice rig. The hull(s) look a bit boxy, but their efficiency cannot be denied.
Thanks for the DVD Darryl…it is greatly appreciated. Good luck on making this hot little boat a commercial success.

Regards,
Bob

AO is a one joker boat and easy to deal with in the car park and on the beach. THat is the deal over an F16 and if the price is less also it is a given that the man who likes to rely on himself will want to go there.
Bob, I think, has it right in his assessment of the DVD with hull shape being the only downer.
DVDs do work and don't work, we down here are in "Zone 4" if that means anything. The internet provides the codes for making DVD players "all zone" if you want to have a search.
Good luck and sail fast.
Lester

the intent was to gauge if there is enough serious interest to do something like import the Alpha Omega whole or in kit form (hulls, cross bars, rudders/assembly)...reference exhange rates, plus shipping. Then complete the boat with US purchased mast, boom, main sail, spinnaker package, rigging, trampoline, sheets, blocks, etc. Alternative would be to help Darryl find a company in the US to build it under license. My estimated total cost was more than a new F16. I was hoping the mass of sailors interested in the F14 would pool resources and work out a way to make this work.

Check out Vector Marine in FL for a US-based builder. They are building the Blade F16 here now...

Now you know why the F16 class is always putting alot of attention to creating local builders !

And why it was such a critical importance to have a local US builder.

Wouter

You know...when the question was first asked...I was thinking...well why not just spend a bit more and get a F-16 where you can go both solo or two up...but the more I watch Video...looking at how compact it is...what good performance is coming out of it...well lets just say every time I view the DVD I am a little more convinced that this would be a trick boat to own...yea every one wants to go sailing with you...until you actually want to go sailing...then they all have an excuse. It appears that you could take this little puppy out in some major wind without fear.

As much as the Hobie 14 design sucked, I have to say I had some of the most fun sailing that little boat…now to take the performance up an order of magnitude with the Alpha Omega…in the same size boat…that would be a very hard treat to pass up. Darryl, keep pushing for a builder.

We have been so conditioned to think bigger is better…but is it really? You know what they say…a boats frequency of use is inversely proportional to its size. In other words, the smaller it is the more it is used. Maybe we should be putting our energy into getting top performance out of the smallest possible package.

Darryl have you given any consideration to selling plans for a home built Alpha Omega…the hull design (at least from the video) looks like it would be very easy to build. Not a lot of compound curves.

Regards,
Seeker

I am not sure which version DVD you have of the Alpha sailing, I have added video over time to the original as more has become available and in the current version there is a 5 to 7 minute chapter at the end with two Alpha F14's sailing together in about 18 to 20 knots of wind showing some extremely fast driving reaches. On that day there were 4 different sailers on the cats in the different shots (one flew in from Denmark to stay with us over Christmas purposely to sail the Alpha, as well as get away from the snow in Europe), the lightest one sailing weighed 73kgs and the heaviest was 107 Kgs, the Alpha didn't seem to notice any difference between any of their weights. We are racing two F14’s against each other at the same club here with one of the guys at 105kgs and the other at 80kgs and over this season so far their finish results have been evenly split.
Your right with the frequency of use, when you want to go sailing you just go, no waiting for a crew, no problem towing it, you just hook it to the car and often forget that you have it in tow due to it's lightness and ease of towing (and I don’t really notice any difference in fuel consumption either and that’s often at 100 km/hr behind a RAV 4 on a 500 Km round trip), and when you rig it and derig it, it isn't the "work" that a larger cat is, I never thought that I would say this about any boat but, it is actually a pleasure packing it up at the end of the day.
Although it may not be completely apparent from the photos and video, the hulls are not compatible to convert to timber, the radii of the curves just can't be duplicated in ply (mores the pity) but we have no problem supplying hulls only to some one building their own F14 based on our hulls, after all the most critical part of the performance is firstly in the hull form.
(By the way, the "straw poll" doesn't seem to work, it only shows that "you didn't vote for anything" otherwise I would have obiously voted in the affirmative!!!)

Hi Darryl

I must have the earlier version of the video as there is not any footage where two A&O's sailing together. But I love what is on the video you sent me...

Could you post some still pictures that show the hulls in more detail? I would love to see what the lines drawing looks like but totally understand if you don't want to post that...LOL

Sending out those DVD is marketing genius. It will do more to promote your boat dollar for dollar than anything you could have done. It is a shame that some boats never reach their potential popularity because the designers thinks a great design is enough, they ignore marketing. You are off to a great start! Don’t let up. The boat speaks for itself on film…it seems to float on air instead of on the water. The video is addictive, the more you watch it the more you are drawn in.

Regards,
Bob

VectorWorks builds 3 boats, the Blade, G-Cat F16 and A Class. My understanding condideration was given to building the 14. Best we can do is find another US company to build it.

I have to agree, catching up/keeping up with a larger boats is fun in my old 15', closer to 14' waterline, up to 10 knots it's a lot of fun. I too am impressed by Darryl's Video going faster in higher winds and rougher waters.
My original question remains, is there enough interest in the US to try to have it manufactored here?

Having seen the AO F14 in the flesh, both under construction and on the water sailing against the 16s and 18s, I can confirm that it is an impressive little machine. If not for personal business commitments, Darryl would have received an order from me by now.

Why don't you blokes in the US, who recognise the many attributes of the AO, get together and organise a container load (say 4 or 6 boats) to be shipped over. I am sure that prospective builders will sit up and take notice once you start winning races on line honours and yardstick against the big guys. I believe all the AO needs is this initial foothold in the US for it to take-off, subject to the presence of a local builder and the appropriate marketing.


Phil

PS I have no business connection with Darryl or his company.

do you guys have any pics of this boat online? I am curious

There are some photos here.
http://www.formula14.yachting.org.au/news.asp

i sail at the same club as these little boats they are very well finished and are extreamly fast against all other boats we have f18s nacra 5.8 A cat hobie20 in its division and these boats race and win on corrected time reguarly somtimes are first over the line you guys in the US need to order and race you wont be dispointed ps i have no conection with the factory either cheers danny

Guys:

This should work if you can't get video to play. Just pick the version you need for your operating system. Especially if it is a mov and you don't want to download Quicktime which may override Windows Media player.

http://www.divx-digest.com/software/media_player_classic.html

Doug Snell

Hobie 17
www.tcdyc.com

and here; http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4287241557

F16's w/spin purchased in the US, not including crating/shipping, range from $13.4K (w/CF foils) to $15k.
What if AO F14 could be purchased for, say $10.7K, plus shipping?
Option 1: put together a multiple factory purchase which should also reduce shipping costs per boat.
Option 2: have it built in the US. Talks are underway with possible domestic manufacturor, cost of materials suggests building multiple sets of hulls at a time.
Alternative: finish it yourself F14 kits. Starter kit might be just the hulls, with everything else an option from same supplier or your choice of sources. Example, domestic sail lofts for sails & tramps (2 near me build A Class and Formula 16 sails). We would need a source for the masts/spars (A Class wing section, 25', boom, cross beams).
Either solution begs the question, how many are ready to buy one of these fun boats we see flying on Darryl's DVDs?

see my last post, is $10,800 USD, plus shipping, too much for a new AO F14? If yes, need domestic source for the 25' wing section mast (ref: A Class), Hall only makes the full sized version (30'), and blanks start at $2500.

Question is what is shipping to the US and is there any duty or import tax?

Hi there,

I agree with this to a point. As far as F14, 16 or 18 is the boat for you, it depends a lot on your local and individual conditions.

For me and my area, my crew and I are around 165kg, sail in everything from dead flat drifters to 3m swell + a real ugly chop and 30+ kts and therefore an F18 is the boat for us.

If I had a smaller crew and was sailing on a lake or some area with less chop maybe a F16 would be the go.

On the other hand, if I lost 20kg and were sailing alone (once again on a lake or similar) it would be a difficult decision between the F14 & 16.

I seriously doubt that there would be many differences between the three in number of sailing days per year. Just as a yardstick we have had around 80 sailing days this past 12 months on the Tiger.

Reaper

Thing is with the F14, it is the only spinnaker boat I can think of which can reasonably be campaigned by one person i.e., be loaded on and of the trailer, rigged, launched and retrieved, and in many cases, kept in the shed / garage / driveway at home, and there are no crew hassles. They are also somewhat easier and cheaper to tow on the road than are bigger boats.
Biggest worry till now has been that 14ft cats have not been considered big enough to be taken seriously but with the much improved performance of the more recent boats, and their unique attraction as single handed boat with spinnaker, they are now a much more reasonable proposition.

“For me and my area, my crew and I are around 165kg, sail in everything from dead flat drifters to 3m swell + a real ugly chop and 30+ kts and therefore an F18 is the boat for us.”

If I had a smaller crew and was sailing on a lake or some area with less chop maybe a F16 would be the go.

On the other hand, if I lost 20kg and were sailing alone (once again on a lake or similar) it would be a difficult decision between the F14 & 16.”

>>>First of all I solute you if you can sail any beach cat in a true sustained 30+kts, with any degree of control or survival. 30+knts on a 7’-10” X 20” high wind sailboard is a handful (and fun) for the experienced…let alone a catamaran…maybe you exaggerated a bit…LOL…maybe more than a bit….LOL… If you are inclined to exaggerate as much as my windsurfing buddies 30 knts is usually read as 22-25 mph on the wind gauge….LOL and when it’s truly blowing 30 knots they swear up and down it’s 50 mph…LOL If you truly are that good, my apologies…

>>>It’s funny you and I are looking at the F-14 platform from opposite perspectives. …I personally would rather be on a smaller platform when in high winds, heavy seas, and on a larger one in lighter winds… I use to love riding, (and on rare occasions) jumping waves in the mouth of our inlet and offshore reefs with my Hobie 14…it was a drag when the wind was light…but once the wind came up it was a blast.

>>>I can see why you would like to share the experience with a crew if they were up to the task. I agree that your equipment of choice might increase your versatility.

>>>Personally I would rather be out with a couple of F-14’s, instead on one F-18. To me it would kind of be like surfing VS surfing tandem. It’s just more fun when you are on a platform that is lighter and more responsive.

>>>Of course I am talking about playing around in the swells (in the Atlantic Ocean in my case), not racing. To me “high performance playing around” is way under rated by the sailing community, and “racing” is way over rated. The impromptu racing that happens every time two boats meet on the water satisfies any racing needs I might have…LOL

>>>There is another potential here that hasn’t been touch upon…making an F-14 that can be quickly broken down and set up. With a Minimum weight of 60 kg, the parts could be easily shuttled to and from the beach and assembled by a single person. About the same as carrying two kayaks down to the beach. In essences, if you could windsurf a spot, you could sail it with your F-14. Two adults could carry the assembled hulls/deck beams /tramp/rudders in one trip. This could open up a lot of coast that is not currently open to Catamarans.

>>>This might not be a factor in your area, but where I live there is no way to Ocean launch from the beach because of Sea Turtle protection. If you can carry it down to the waters edge everything is fine…but there is no way to move a 400 lb assembled boat from the parking lot to the water (unless you are going to bring six people to carry it in the soft sand…no cat trax...and if you could find a place wide enough for it to pass thru.) The alternative is to sail it out the inlet which was fine years ago (like I did with my h-14)…but now when the fishing tournaments have as many as 400 boats (plus at least that many in normal traffic) it is hard to thread the needle with a power boat let alone a un-powered sailboat. Add to the mix trying to tack into the predominately on-shore wind, and tacking against a 5 mph tide when it is comming in. You soon come to the reality that there is no where to go in this constricted waterway.

>>>Regards,
>>>Bob

You shouldn't have to break an F14 apart much to carry it to the water. Two people could easily lift the assembled platform (likely a fully assembled boat) and walk it to the water.

We're only talking ~150lbs here. If it wasn't so large and awkward one person could just pick it up and walk it to the water.

There is absolutely no good reason to make an F14 which could be carried by one person. A wind surfer already caters very well for that situation. A 60 kilogram F14 would probably cost something like $20,000 to build and sell for 30. NO ONE would buy one!

I agree that sailors most often exaggerate wind velocity.

One person carrying 150lbs any distance over sand????!!!! The 'Terminator' maybe. Not me though.

Last I checked and the exchange rate was slightly better, a Darryl built AO F14 without sails was just under $11k USD, plus shipping. Got an estimate for main and spin from a local loft that makes A Class and Tornado sails...main $1200, spin $800 plus battens. This puts an AO F14 at about the starting price for a US built Blade F16. We need a US builder, I'm told Vectorworks declined, and the builder I'm working with in Calif is taking a long time to find small amounts of perishible materials (CF, Vynlester, etc). It would be easier if we could order 5-10 sets of hulls at a time. Will post again if/when I make progress.

>>>This might not be a factor in your area, but where I live there is no way to Ocean launch from the beach because of Sea Turtle protection. If you can carry it down to the waters edge everything is fine…but there is no way to move a 400 lb assembled boat from the parking lot to the water (unless you are going to bring six people to carry it in the soft sand…no cat trax...and if you could find a place wide enough for it to pass thru.) The alternative is to sail it out the inlet which was fine years ago (like I did with my h-14)…but now when the fishing tournaments have as many as 400 boats (plus at least that many in normal traffic) it is hard to thread the needle with a power boat let alone a un-powered sailboat. Add to the mix trying to tack into the predominately on-shore wind, and tacking against a 5 mph tide when it is comming in. You soon come to the reality that there is no where to go in this constricted waterway.

>>>Regards,
>>>Bob [/quote]

We certainly don't go out by choice in 30kt conditions but we have been caught a couple of times. Definatly not fun but it can and does happen. We usually don't go out if the wind is above 20 kts (dry sand starting to lift off the beach).

We don't have the turtle problem here. The boats are stored in the yard and we only have to put up a jib & main and roll it down the beach (less than 50m) and we go sailing.

I guess it is all about why one goes sailing. For me, it is racing - we race, and when we are not racing, we are working on improving our skills and doing things better for when we do race. Just sailing about bores me to tears <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />. I can see that for some people it is totally the opposite. Bottom line is - enjoy what you are sailing and respect that your boat doesn't necessarily suit everybody!

Tiger Mike

"There is absolutely no good reason to make an F14 which could be carried by one person. A wind surfer already caters very well for that situation. A 60 kilogram F14 would probably cost something like $20,000 to build and sell for 30. NO ONE would buy one!"

>>The A&O is only 75KG's all up if I am reading the info correctly...I would think that the platform (hulls/beams/tramps/rudders...without the mast/rigging/sails) weigh no more than 60 KG's.

>>>If the hulls could be quickly assembled/disassembled, the individual hulls would be as light, or lighter than two typical Glass Kayaks. Like wind speed, cost of construction is also often exaggerated...LOL

>>>I love windsurfing, and have been actively involved in it since 1986...but its not my vehicle of choice if the wind is lighter than 18 mph or for going distances of more than a mile or so from my launch site. An F-14 Cat would be much more comfortable for that.

Regards,
Bob

I've carried two girls across the beach before, one under each arm. They weighed ~105lbs each. Of course, it was much less awkward than trying to carry a 14x8' boat.

Arnold?! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Not at all, I was ~ 18-19 years old and all of 150lbs. I had taken them out sailing and they didn't want to get their feet sandy before getting in their dad's (very expensive) car to go to the restaurant.

Now that I think about it, it may have been one over each shoulder, not under each arm... it was a while ago and my memory isn't as good on details as I wish it was. I do remember it tired me out some and it took me longer than usual to put the G-Cat on the Cat-Trax and wheel it up the beach to my tie-down.

you did mean "Arnold" from "Happy days"?

Darryl how much does a single
A&O hull weigh… Stripped down hull, no boards, no rudder, no beams?

Regards,
Bob

finished hull closed ready to attach beams etc, with chainplates mounted for side stays and bridle, and rudder gudgeons, 16.5kgs.

36.38 pounds for the metrically challenged

Too bad this appears to be going nowhere.

This is on youtube it's part of the video Darryl was talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nrCYTxQDtQ

That thing come with a wing-mast?

What's it rate on Texel, DPN, etc.?

Yes a wing carbon mast.

This looks like the boat for me at this stage and in this place. I'd like to test drive one in 12kn to 22kn here or somewhere else in SE. FL.
If there's one around, would someone let me know please. I need a boat bad for this winter, while my 39 Greene Tri is in the lakes for sale. See, yachtworld.com

sorry Mate only avalible in AUS. In saying this Darryl has one for sale that we could send to th USA. With the aussie dollar being nackerd it would be a super bargain.
http://www.catsailor.net/cgi-bin/ubb/Forum13/HTML/000520.html

"sorry Mate only avalible in AUS. In saying this Darryl has one for sale that we could send to th USA. With the aussie dollar being nackerd it would be a super bargain."

What are shipping costs and applicable taxes? If the Aussie dollar goes south a bit more it might off set the shipping/tax costs. I would love to have it...but the economy being what it is????
It has been up for sale for quite a while...probably sold by now anyway...

Regards,
Robert

Boat is still for sale. please contact darryl he will be able to help with your questions.

Someone on the F16 forum said there are Vipers being shiped to America. So you need to speak to darryl regarding the boat. Then speak tp Greg Goodall at AHPC and see if you can do a deal to get the boat in one of there containers.
Im sure you could arrange if your that keen.

I think you will find the vipers go directly from where they are made to America.

Only the Viper hulls come from Thailand. The beams,mast and all the other fittings come from Bendigo in Victoria.(Same for the Capricorn) Victoria is about 5 hours from where the F14 is.