Correct me if I'm wrong here please, but I thought the Hobie had the right of way being the upwind boat and if the spin is up the 20 must be going downwind.

Also, let me say I have been in a situation where I was upwind with an spin boat coming down toward me when he got close he jibed but he was so close I started to tack and I was trying to stay out of the way by we got pretty close.My thought was he knew I had the right of way but was using all his speed before changing course.

Remember, they were on opposite tacks so starboard/port takes precedence. You're thinking windward/leeward if they were both sailing on the same tack.

In this case, if the I-20 had immediately jibed to port after the A-rounding and been on a collision course with the H-16 still going upwind on port tack, the H-16 would have been the right of way boat.

Bob Hodges

heh? really?

I agree with Stank - spin boat should take into account the incoming traffic at the mark when setting the chute, they have to give the Hobie 16 the time to avoid and spin boats tend to wobble their course as we round the mark and set the chute...leaves it tough for the 16 to avoid - especially if they're not fully aware of the course limitations of a spin boat.

Also note that almost all of this can be avoided if the RC chooses to drop an offset at the A mark 20 or 30 feet away. I think this is especially important in mixed fleets sharing an A.

C'mon guys! We're not in Court! This isn't litigation!

Further, this wasn't even an Olympic competition.

It isn't cool to run people off the water!

I've found that the best approach is to understand exactly what the rules allow and then be a nice guy anyway. All the while expecting that you will not be treated any better than the rules require.

It's for this reason that you really do need to "give a crap" about what the rules say.

First, I don't care if he's the dali lhama,

If he cares what some nobody, talentless clown of a sailor calls him, thats his business. I'm sure he's a big boy and can take the "heat".

Second, when I say "I don't care what the rules say" I mean it in the context of the rest of my post.

"I don't care if the rule says you can do it, you left me no recourse and you caused me to flip, you did it on purpose and I think you're an a-hole on account of it."

Now I don't know whether this was the situation during the mentioned race, because I wasn't there. I'm speaking in generalities and probably took rhody's comment out of context, but I strongly disagree that causing your competitor to flip is within the bounds of good sportsmanship and the spirit of yacht racing. If it is, then I'm in the wrong sport and peace out. This aint no nascar.

I'll risk getting hurt and breaking my boat on account of my own actions, or even others' noviceness or mistakes. However, I'm not willing to go out there on a course where theres a headhunter that would, if given the opportunity, cause an accident in the name of competition and play it off when confronted "hey I did nothing wrong according to the rules". Maybe I'm just a big fat baby then.

Then again, the rules are supposedly written to prevent this sort of thing from happening.

That about covers it.

The slow (or slower) boats are in the dead zone if they approach the windward mark on Port - Just don't do it.

Scary to read above that people do not understand the basic Port vs Stbd and W vs L rules!

The golden rule with these situations (where a starboard boat is coming down wid, onto/at a prot boat coming up wind) is this:


"The Port boat only has to react to what the Stbd boat does, and the Stbd boat has to give the port boat room to do it"




A follow up example might help.


If the stbd boat is hit by a big gust, it cannot assume that it may bear off to avoid a capsize if the port boat is trying to avoid it (and is close enough that the stbd boats actions my preclude it avoiding).

So if you see a very large gust coming (and you are the Stbd boat), it may pay to "establish" your new course early by bearing off early, thus giving the port boat extra time to react.

[color:"blue"] ON THE SAME TACK, NOT OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and not overlapped, a boat clear astern shall keep clear of a boat clear ahead. [/color]
[color:"black"] These boats were not on the same tack therefore one was not overtaking the other. And this rule only applies until overlap is established. Ultimately it means you can not drive up someones sterns. [/color]

You are mixing headings with positions. An upwind boat is one closer to the source of the wind not the boat that is beating. The upwind boat is referred to as the windward boat. The spin boat going downwind must be to the windward of the beating boat before a crossing situation would arise.
And then, windward/leeward only applies to boats on the same tacks. In this case the boats on different tacks rule applies.
[color:"blue"] ON OPPOSITE TACKS
When boats are on opposite tacks, a port-tack boat shall keep clear of a starboard-tack boat. [/color]

If you are on the last lap of a race. You are heading for the bottom mark (flying your spinnaker), with a beat still to go. You know if you get to the bottom mark first, you can hold the other cat off to the finish. He is to windward of you, has just picked up a gust, is bearing off, and is coming down on you quite fast and will take your wind roll over the top of you and get to the mark ahead of you.
You will not try to luff him up
He knows the rules. If he puts himself in that position to try and win the race - that's his problem.

I am sure that the guys who will be racing against you this season will now know that they can chance a few dodgy moves on you because you will not defend yourself

I don't think that a slower boat has any rights to luff a clearly faster boat that is overtaking it; not according to the sailing rules. The slower (leeward) boat has the right to set his desired course prior to the overtaking but not to alter it constantly or even alter it after the overtaking has commenced in earnest.

The boat that is being overtaken must maintain it course till he has been fully overtaken. Of course there is some slow boat babbling about establishing an overlap first. As if that is at all realistic when a speed difference of 10 knots exist between a H16 and I-20 on the downwind leg. But the idea is the same; the spirit of the rule is still the same.

The intent or spirit of the rules are that a boat which is moving in to overtake a slower boat gets rights as soon as he is no longer able to avoid mayhem if the other boat would alter it's course. When being overtaken by a spinnaker boat to luff then that means you can't luff him up at the last moment. You can when he is still some distance away and he can still bear down and go underneath but not later. This has nothing to do with windward/leeward as that only applies for situations were there isn't a clear case of one boat overtaking the other OR when setting up courses prior to the overtaking manouvre commencing. When you are side by side (or close when on cats) then you can't luff the overtaking boat, although many people think so. You are required to maintain your old course till the overlap (overtaking) has ended. If you don't then your are failing the rule to stay clear of other boats when engaging in a manouvre or course alteration.

There are more sailing rules then starboard/port and windward/leeward. And there are seperate rules for situations were one boat overtakes another. I wish more people would learn these additional rules.

Then there is also that great sailing rule that states that no boat or crew may force his rights when that leads to a unavoidable dangerous situation or even a collision. When a collision occurs then the luffing boat will be found in error as well. And it will be open to disqualification or even worse. It may even turn out that the luffing boat is guilty and has to pay the damages.

And otherwises we have the sportmanship rule which will make mince meat out of any Hobie 16 luffing a I-20's that is under spinnaker. You have no rights to block a clearly faster vessel from overtaking you once it has been decided on which side you will be overtaken.


In direct answer to the question :




The guy who thinks he can defend his clear air by insisting on his "right" to being ignorant about the other sailing rules which give rights to the other boat in situations like this.

Personally, I think any crew actively causing a dangerous situation because of some perceived rights are ....

Wouter

This is really scary folks, people don't know their rules !

Dermot, the rules give you the right to MAINTAIN your course through the above situation, not to ALTER it amidst of the situation developping.

This is a big difference.

If you had luffed him prior to the gust when he was still behind you, higher and sailing his old course then everything is okay. If he then gets hit by the gust and can't stay clear of you (while you maintain your course) then he simply has to crash it. You have all the rights. He is out of luck.

HOWEVER, you are at fault if you luff him after the gust that'll see him legally overtake you when you had maintained your course !

If you even force a crash on him then you are seriously at fault and can even be disqualified from the event all together with possible wider future sanctions.

Wouter

>Then again, the rules are supposedly written to prevent this sort of thing from happening.<

(Multi classes is another story as you have already expressed.)
(Multi classes is another story as you have already expressed.)

On another tack.
I think it is interesting how Iceboat rules handle the downhill ROW. (please read rules below)
With the incursion of spinnaker cats, perhaps they should follow the iceboats lead in OD Class racing downwind???

RULE 4.
When two yachts sailing
OFF-THE-WIND are on the same tack, the LEEWARD YACHT shall keep clear.

When two yachts sailing
ON-THE-WIND are on the same tack, the WINDWARD YACHT shall keep clear.

http://www.nsibyc.com/raceruledef.asp#Right%20of%20Way

WRONG Wouter !

The windward boat must keep clear. THis is why people must be carefull when overtaking with the kite up.

However, the leaward boat cannot come up from miles below to stop a boat overtaking - This is why a lot of the top people talk about establishing "overtaking lanes" downwind - some clear space to allow you to over take.

I don't agree with you Scooby.

The devil is in the details. I wrote " ... that is overtaking it ... "

Once the overtaking has commenced the leeward boat can not luff the overtaking boat. The leeward boat will then fail the "stay clear and allow room to others" rule that applies when changing its course or initiating manouvres. If the luffing is done after an overlap has been established then the leeward boat will also fail the rules that govern overtaking.

The courses (luffing) must be established prior to the overtaking situation occuring.

In effect you can not ACTIVELY force a flip or crash on any windward boat by ACTIVELY luffing at the time because this means that the windward boat was left without any option to stay clear except crash and therefor you will fail the "... allow room to others to stay clear of you ..." part of the rules.

If the windward boat misjudges the situation and has to flip or crash to avoid contact WHILE you are maintaining your old course then yes you have all the rights. But only in this situation.

Many people think you can ACTIVELY luff a windward boat in (all) situations, but that is not true. There are quite a few situations where one can not do this. And there are quite a few rules that rule against this.


One particular rule states that you can't actively luff a windward boat onto the start vessel. Many people forget about that one as well. If the windward boat is sailing close-hauled along side you and he can just clear the starting vessel while maintaining this course then the you as the leeward boat have no luffing rights. If he is also overtaking you and has established an overlap then you won't have luffing rights for this reason either.

Wouter

SURVEY SAYS 96! "It's my duty to avoid a collision,regardless of whether I have right of way". That about says it all in my book in everything but the olympics then your in ramming mode.

Wouter, I am not sure if you purposely missread other peoples statements so that you can then shout that people do not know the rules, or if you just take things up the wrong way. I was answering the above quote and trying to show that you must take resposibility for your actions and not say something like "OK maybe I am in the wrong, but you have to let me pass you anyway because I might capsize my boat"
I was talking about 2 similar cats racing downwind. One is maybe 5 to 10 boatlengths behind the other and slightly to windward. The first cat sees the second one getting a gust and coming up fast behind. The first cat will luff up to stop the second overtaking to windward (It is called racing you know). If the second cat decides to commit to passing the first to windward and gets a stronger gust, which might capsize him because of his spinnaker, the first does not have to bear away to let him pass safely. The overtaking boat must stay clear and not get himself into that situation. It is very much outside "the bounds of good sportsmanship and the spirit of yacht racing" to try and win a race because you know that, even though you are in the wrong, a competitor will back off and let you pass to avoid an accident caused by your bullying and disregard for the rules.
It may not be Nascar, but it is similar to Formula 1. You do not dive down the inside and expect the driver you are trying to overtake to get out of your way just because you missjudged your braking.

Did you mean (overatkingboat), The UberRatkingBoat? There is a load of them already.

Sorry Dermot,

I understood you meant continue to luff up even when the boat was bearing down on you. That would be a fault of you. I misunderstood then.

Wouter

There was just such an offset mark to avoid just such a situation. The H16 sailor either had a death wish or more likely didn't realize the potential hazard of coming into A on the port layline with spinnaker boats above him.

There were quite a few people at the skippers meeting who were unclear on the purpose of an offset mark. I wonder if this H16 sailor was one of them. Its unfortunate they got yelled at - better to give them benefit of the doubt and talk to them on the beach afterwards in a constructive manner, but I can relate to the I-20 sailor - you aren't always thinking straight in the middle of a situation.

Is it justifiable for boats in different classes to protest one another? An early post indicated perhaps not, but I disagree. If you don't protest the other boat then they may gain advantage against other boats in their class by the foul.

I'm amazed at the level of ignorance of basic rules in this post and also at some fun races. Perhaps its because the RRS is a little dry reading and there are a quite few rules to remember. But then there are some great books and websites with diagrams to explain situations like this.

I'm thinking of a short rules seminar with a quiz and prizes at the next well populated fun regatta in our area to increase awareness.

And as for all the hot air about closing the door on an overtaking spin boat, how many times have you guys flipped with the spin and how many times has anyone or thing got hurt? (Not often). Normally the only hurt thing is the pride of the person who tried to roll someone a little too close. All's fair in love and war. Dermot's formula one braking analogy is a great one.

It can be a good thing to separate classes onto different courses (such as slow boats on a shorter inside course), but Lake Charles is a little on the small side for this.

Great topic Bob!

Chris.