Dear Troll...I mean Mr Anonymous...I mean Mr. who-me

"All I'm saying is that ODs are NOT doomed, and they DO grow (which is indisputable looking at the figures of ODs like H16s)."

Is the Hobie 16 class in a current state of growth? Are you saying that there are more Hobie 16's in active use now than any time prior to 2006? (By active use I am excluding the thousands of Hobie 16's wasting away in back yards all across America that haven’t seen the water in at least a year). How many of the 35,000 Hobie 16’s you talk about were sold new in the US in 2005? And if there were less boats sold in 2005 than say…1985 or 1980 would that not mean that the numbers are declining not increasing? What is your definition of growth? Please enlighten me.

Regards,
Bob

The numbers prove that it is - at least marginally so.

In 2004, there were 1373 Hobie 16 race participants in HCA Events - before the "Hobie Only" edict went into place.

If you take out the events in Divisions 6, 8, 9 and 12 that "fell off the map" because of the edict, that number drops to 1302

In 2005, there were 1319 race participants - and that doesn't count the H-16's that race in non-sanctioned events (the southeast US and Texas mostly). Modest growth at best, but growth nontheless.

Of course, it's not like it was in the early '80's. Every class goes through its ups and downs.

Coming from a part of the country where there is no racing other than Hobie (and I do wish it was a more wide spread mixture without diluting the numbers...wish in one hand...). The H16 numbers are status quo at best. Most "existing" racers have already or are moving to the 20. I suppose there is the possibility of inticing a sailor from centerboard or keel ranks to a 20. THE entry level boat is the H16, and thanks to tens of thousands sold, still perpetuating our sport, but at much reduced levels. If not for this boat, I'd probably be powerboating.

Sorry for not adding anything you didn't already know, I just don't see another "stepping stone" or entry level boat being introduced since than the Wave. Will another manufacturer fill this void? And I'm "wishing" again...for a void.

What would this "dream" boat look like? And, what does a new H16 cost?

“The numbers prove that it is - at least marginally so.

In 2004, there were 1373 Hobie 16 race participants in HCA Events - before the "Hobie Only" edict went into place.

If you take out the events in Divisions 6, 8, 9 and 12 that "fell off the map" because of the edict, that number drops to 1302

In 2005, there were 1319 race participants - and that doesn't count the H-16's that race in non-sanctioned events (the southeast US and Texas mostly). Modest growth at best, but growth nonetheless.

Of course, it's not like it was in the early '80's. Every class goes through its ups and downs.”

>>Thank you mbound for the information…it gives us one piece of the puzzle. Glad to hear that things are on the up swing.

I tried to do a search on how many new Hobie 16’s were sold in 2005, but could find no hard numbers.

We all know that there are a ton of Hobie 16’s out there on the used market that can be bought for a song. It is a great avenue for new sailors to get into catamaran sailing. A cheap old Hobie 14 or 16 have probably brought more new people to cat sailing than any other thing…but this seems accomplish only so much. Obviously this takes things only so far.

Can you imagine if Ford, GM and Chrysler were still making the same exact model they did back in the 1970’s and 1980’s, how many cars do you think they would sell?
If computers stayed with the format of Commodore 64’s how far behind do you think computers would be? In almost every avenue of life things are moving forward at break neck speed. Why shouldn’t cat sailing do the same?

As for the money…People go out and plunk down $20K for two PWC all the time…why wouldn’t they do the same for a Cat if it was presented in as enticing light?
If you want to get more people involved in the sport then someone is going to have to go into the GENERAL PUBLIC and make cat sailing desirable again…Like Hobie Alter did in the beginning. Seems like a lot of time is spent “preaching to the choir” and then wondering why no new people are coming thru the doors.

Regards,
Bob

Absolute new ones (2006 models) are in the $9K range, although there are deals to be had on "new old stock", North American's boats from last year, etc.

There's a "nearly new" boat on eBay right now starting at $7,800.

Demo Boat in SC

"Absolute new ones (2006 models) are in the $9K range, although there are deals to be had on "new old stock", North American's boats from last year, etc."

mbound do you have any numbers of how many new H16's were sold in the US in 2005?

Regards,
Bob

Nope. HCC does not publish production numbers, nor divulge them publicly.

As I have said before, it all depends on the People and Volunteers. This weekend, there are about 20 H-16, and H-18's teams signed up for Hobie 101 at Sail Sand Point in Seattle. In addition a H-17 Clinic will be held by our local H-17 sailors. Sail Sand Point now has four donated H-16's and a H-14, that are being restored, and intergrated into their programs. A local Hobie Sailor is taking US SAILING Level 1 training to become a instructor in our Catamaran Classes. Last weekend, we had a Fast and Fun free sailing event in Kirkland with our five Waves. Our local Hobie Cat dealer, Hobie Cats Northwest, brought in the Hobie Cat kayaks traveling demo team, and together we got over 100 new people on the water. For more info go to www.sailsandpoint.org.
Caleb Tarleton, Sail Sand Point

Seeker, merely because I dispute your claim that ODs are doomed does not make me a troll.

You are pretty close to anonymous yourself, I can't see why you make such a fuss about it. It wouldn't change the facts.

Further up the thread you have been given info about H16s in the US. The class may not be spectacular but it backs up all I was ever disputing, which was your claim that ODs always die and cannot grow.

We're not selling cars here, so the concept of updating models every year doesn't apply in the same way. In fact the facts indicate quite clearly that the classes that update are not sure of survival, and the classes that don't update are generally more popular - look at any listing of the most popular classes and it's almost all ODs at the top.

Look at the classes that CAN get updated every year and you'll see D Class (dead) C Class (moribund, about 2 races each 4 years), B Class (long dead), A Class (about 40 new members in the main countries, but no overall growth in terms of existing boats and 30 fewer new boats in '06 than in '02), 18 square (dead), Formula 16 (small) Formula 18 (growing; up 7 boats at the UK nationals '98-'05, similar in other areas, very popular in other places), F20 (?), F18HT (?). That's not exactly indicating that development classes are immortal.

The first OD cat classes in England (Shearwater) and Australia (Yvonne) are both still alive - proof that ODs do NOT die as you claimed.

Kieth, bummer about your tramp. We had a similar problem with ours, in a class that HAS got multiple suppliers. We haven't really worried about it.....compared to the cost of updating to the new sails that competing sailmakers have brought out it's a minor problem.

I'm NOT having attacking ODs, or loose ODs, or development classes, they're all fantastic and all offer vital things to our sport. All I was doing is replying to a claim that ODs always die when they clearly do not, as is proven by the fact that the very first ones are still around.

Am I saying we have to stick with H16s and Shearwaters and other old boats? Of course not. It would be great to get more user-friendly entry-level boats in. A cat version of the Opti and 420 would also be a great idea, as far as I can see.

Hiyas,

I don't think the OD's are doomed at all. The whole concept is evolving though. Not many classes that have lasted the distance are *exactly* the same as origional. H16's have changed, H14's change, even the Yvonne that you mentioned have changed. The boat was designed in the mid 50's and stayed virtually the same till the rig was changed in the early 90's and more recently the origional spi has changed to a huge assemetric (sp?). They are good to sail - like sitting in a big comfy arm chair

Tiger Mike

The Shearwater class that is cited as an example of OD is in fact a RESTRICTED class. i.e. it is a development class. When I raced Shears back in the 1970s there were many quirky boats around with the only common factors between them and the 'factory' boats being hulls and dimensions including sail area. But you had and still have freedom of materials for beams, masts, sails. Freedom of systems. Freedom over extrusion sections, rudder shapes, centreplate design etc.

Looking at the 2006 boats, although they are undeniably Shearwaters, they actually couldn't be described as being the same as the boats that I knew from the 60s and 70s and a HUGE departure from the boat penned by Roland and Francis Prout. A One Design it most certainly is not.

Who_Me

“Seeker, merely because I dispute your claim that ODs are doomed does not make me a troll.”

>>>If you are so confident in your statements, why do you feel the need to hide your identity? You show up (5/09/06), never posting before (under this name at least) and make statements you are evidently not comfortable standing behind. What else am I to think?

>>>When the old open forum was operating there were many anonymous posters stirring the pot on a daily bases. We have been free of the vast majority of that kind of behavior on the new open forum. It is amazing how much more civilized people become when they have to identify themselves. To me, someone who is not man/woman enough to stand behind their words shows a lack on integrity.

“You are pretty close to anonymous yourself; I can't see why you make such a fuss about it. It wouldn't change the facts.”

>>>Lets see…My First and Last Name is listed, City/State/Country is listed, the fact that I have been a member on this forum since 04/04/02…and this post happens to be my 200th…I am not ashamed to link my name with my opinions.

>>>There are items of truths in the body of your posts I will not deny, but they are general in nature. Some of your statements kind of distort the facts…like the 60’s long board analogy…the long boards of today are so much more advanced in material and design that the only thing in common is the length...Compare a new Surf Tech Long board and a 60’s Clark foam and polyester board and tell me they are the same….same Weight? No, Same Rocker? No, Same Outline shape? No, Same Thickness Flow? NO, Same Fins? NO, same Materials?, No…please. In the windsurfing analogy…as you progress in windsurfing you need more wind to be able to push to the next level. While drifting around on an old 12’ one design board might have satisfied when you first start out, it hardly compares to advanced high speed maneuvers and aerials. In the US it is hard to find steady 20 mph+ conditions with any kind of consistency. After a while you get tired of standing on the beach all day waiting for the wind to come up. You move on to something else. It had little to do with OD racing as very, very few Windsurfers race.

>>>The facts are not kind when it comes to the popularity numbers of Cat sailing or sailing in general. In comparisons to other sports that the general population participates in, we are hardly a blip on the radar. Even within the more general heading or “boating” we show a very small presence.

>>>Sports have come into being, and eclipsed Cat Sailing because of better marketing of their product. How many TV commercials have you seen promoting PWC or Off Road 4 wheelers in comparison to how many TV commercials you have seen promoting Cat sailing? I don’t remember ever seeing a dedicated commercial promoting Cat sailing…let alone a 30 minute infomercial such as the one out promoting the Evinrude E-tech 2 stroke outboard. People get emotionally involved with things they see on TV and in full color, popular, main stream magazines.

>>>Cat sailing is in the background…not the leading edge. Until someone promotes it properly (meaning spending some serious advertising dollars) it is going to stay in the background.Check out some of the video that show up on this forum and the F-16 forum from time to time...it will get you so excited you can't wait to get back on the water again...that's what we need...but on main stream TV. Enjoy sailing on your own terms and try not to get too worked up over the numbers.


Regards,
Bob Hall

Wow, I managed to get into the Shearwater site (not easy) and I must say Jalani is right; the Shearwater describes itself as a restricted class. I'ts very unusual to have a boat with a set set of lines (with tolerances) and rig dimensions to describe itelf in that way, all the other restricted classes (MR, NS, MG, N12 etc) have no set hull shape but merely a box, and ODs like Mosquitoes, 505s, FDs, Tornadoes* etc that have similar freedom to the Shearwater are still One designs! All very strange.

However, the Shearwater may have been a bad example so we'll have to chuck in the Dart 18 - 30 years old, strict OD but still claiming the biggest fleet in the UK. Not dead! That's all I was ever saying (yeah the OD classes can evolve like the Yvonne - that doesn't mean they die!)

Bob, I fully agree that mass-media publicity is important for the sport to grow once more. I just don't see how that can't happen in a one design context - the Dart 18 nationals are being televised this year, the Volvo X40 cats are one design, the televised ProSail cats were one design, the televised 18 foot Skiff circuit went towards one design.

There is however a question mark how good it is for the sport to get lots of TV that shows it as being an extreme, scary expensive sport for experts, rather than a fun, simple, accessible sport for everyone. SUV marketing here concentrates on the fun/comfort/perceived safety/camping/family/exploration aspect, rather than on the revheads in the high-speed high-bounce Paris-Dakar racing specials.

I don't know about the situation where you live, but where I am (Australia) there was a cat boom in the '70s based around Hobie types, which weren't much quicker than older boats - but they were simple and tough and aimed at beginners, and they got TV publicity because of their surf antics. Cat sailing became massive. We had races of 310+ boats, and it was mainly Hobies and similar boats. Now that same race is mainly Tornadoes, F16s, As and F18s and we get 7-10 boats. That's not exactly a tribute to the pulling power of performance!

Windsurfing - I was there as a kid in the late '70s, was in the industry and at the world championships in the boom days (1 million boards sold '85) and I'm still in it. Did the OD, did the development class, did the slalom, did the loops in waves, did the freestyle - and I stand by the comments that development stuffed the sport up. Much of the move to high-wind gear was initiated by the industry in the same sort of marketing you want. Yes, it proves how powerful it can be - but it also proves that if you promote an impractical,unsustainable model of the sport, you won't succeed in the long run.

Re the F16 video - this catting year has been a Tornado/F16 year for me, so I know what F16s are like.

Bob, you are right when you say there has been development in longboards - my description of "old-style '60s vintage longboards" was meant for those people who may not know what a longboard/Mal is. Actually original vintage boards are prized and used in special comps here, but the main point was that when I started surfing longboards in '82, most people thought they were old fashioned and slow....now they are seen as a viable alternative despite a lack of "performance" - just like ODs!

Anyway, enough of me.....all I was trying to show is that ODs don't die and the North Haven Dinghy, Water Wag, Laser, 420, Dart 18, Hobie 16, Tornado (which was conceived, designed and built specifically as a one design within the B development Class rules), Yvonne are proof of that.

The bottom line is you cannot bring new people into the sport if it is perceived as "too hard and too expensive". We need more cheap training facilities with boats available at a low cost, just to get more people started, then once they get addicted to it, they can buy which cat suits their style. Right now, in the US, the only way to learn is do it yourself (often results in a destroyed boat) or spend big bucks to join a yacht club, to use their boats and get training there. I have been impressed by the RYA programs in England that take in anyone off the street, have the boats, instructors and even wetsuits and a shower room available, all for about $30 for an intro lesson. Why we don't have that in the States is a mystery...could it be Insurance Costs are too high?

Communitity Sailing Programs need to fill this need with Free Programs to introduce people to sailing, similar to Fast and Fun.
Caleb Tarleton, Sail Sand Point. www.sailsandpoint.org

In case you did not check it out, go to www.sailsandpoint.org, page down to Fast and Fun, and click on "This is a Free Event"

I think we must be careful not to blame development for the decline in catsailing in Aus or any other place.

The fact that two happening follow one another does not mean that there is a causal link between them.

A counterexample : The first Iraq war and the sanctions on Iraq have been very bad for catsailing world wide. Afterall ever since the invasion of Kuwait the international cat sailing scene has been in decline.



So what is truly my point who is not to say that the OD fleets of back then would have died out no matter what was done and that maybe the rise of development classes slowed done the decline, maybe even the reason why the cat scene is surviving.

AFterall the attracttiveness of OD (bad performance) has been whole unsuccesful to prevent these 300 boat fleets from totally being decimated within a single decade. Not really a testiment of the pulling power of the One-Design either, I say.

Wouter

A few things - if you have a one-design class that has no restrictions on manufacturers, then tolerances are needed for the hulls and other bits because the chance of one builder getting it exactly like another is nill. This sometimes allows for some playing around by the builders - they may find they can alter the hull shape a bit, still be in tolerance, and get a slightly faster hull. Also, in these cases, there may be specs as to how the foils attach to the hulls, but no reqruirement that the casting be exactly the same between builders. Does this mean it's not OD? No.

Again, there is a difference between one design and one design one manufacturer. In regular one design the class can decide what and what does not fit what they consider to be the design, can decide what the tolerances are, can decide whether it's time to update the design/rig to reflect modern times.

My point before about the long running OD classes having updated was not meant to say they were not OD or that they had invalidated the concept - rather it was meant to illustrate that these classes are still around as OD because they evolved from time to time keep things fresh. This is different from the OD as monolithic never to be changed ideal model.

There are classes that have not changed at all that are still around, sure. There are more classes that have died off, especially in the face of other more updated designs. I think in the one manufacturer one design classes the usual mode is to claim one design and then never ever meaningfully update. The claim is that this is done to keep costs down, but given that serious OD racers are constantly buying new sails and the like that seems odd. If every couple of years a change was made, I doubt the financial impact would kill people, and it just may help the class continue due to renewed enthusiasm. Just don't wait until the class is almost dead anyway to try it (P-19MX).

Also - the Prosail 40s were not one-design in the sense you say. At one point there was trimaran in the mix.

If I understand right, the Tornado was built as a B class boat first, and then became a defacto one-design. But its history underscores the keep the design fresh to keep the design alive idea. These changes may be minor (new downhaul systems on Lasers, extreme mast rake on the H-16) or major - adding square top, spin, and non-overlapping jib to the Tornado.