Hi Jake,

Don't get confused between rig tension and main sheet loads. The discusion was relating to why Skiffs use round mast sections under intense loads and prebend a opposed to wing masts.

Also, the 29er and 49ers are not skiffs. We will not go to much into that but if you wish to, do a search on Sailing Anarchy.

The 9ers are a far cry from the true skiffs.....

12 footer

12 footer experimenting with an A class rig. It was carring a kite from just above the hounds. The rig has yet to prove itself against the traditional rigs.

Okay, I will now compare the 49-er and the Taipan F16 both of which I sailed and rigged often. Both boats are very comparable in their dimensions.

The F16 has higher rig loads during sailing then the 49-er. In the way of leech and luff tensions on the sail it is not even a comparison. The F16 (luff and leech) loads are many times higher. Especially with the large squaretops.

If you compare the 49-er on its trolly and a more conventional boat like the hobie 16 on the beach without the mainsheet tight then the 49-er wins, sure.

I wrote earlier that we never used more then a simple 4:1 boat breaker on the 49-er.


I'm one annoying know-it-all, I admit to that and I'm not even ashamed of it. But don't mistake that for lack of respect. I do respect the skiffies and their designs, I just don't buy all the claims.

Maybe the 18 foot skiff loads are alot higher then say on a F18; I can't judge that as I've only seen a 18 foot skiff in the flesh twice in my life. But the 49-er loads certainly isn't.




That is funny, I actually have an answer to that comment. It took over a year and 170 kg double trapping under spinnaker on a high broad reach to break the Taipan superwing mast that was fitted with a F18 spinnaker that came to 450 mm of the top of the mast. It broke when the mast rotation inverted and the mainsail leech didn't support the top anymore. We were all a bit surprised that the Taipan superwing mast could take such abuse for such a long time.

It is my experience that skiff spinnaker are flown alot more dead downwind then cat spinnakers, their luffs being alot more loose. So I'm not too sure whether a 3 times greater skiff spi actually loads the mast up more then the lot smaller but tighter luffed + more reaching oriented catamaran spinnakers.

I sailed my share of skiffs and all were notoriously difficult to handle on any high broad reaching or reaching. So we mostly did upwind and very deep downwind.

Wouter

OK - I'll concede that the vang strut thingy does take away considerably to the sheet loads...perhaps the 29'er is not the greatest comparison

Now I'm really lost however, 29'er not a skiff? Sailing Anarchy as a factual resource? seriously? The thing is a pie tin just like the others...so the rig is a little smaller but does that mean that a Hobie Wave is not a catamaran? - the 9'ers are still the same configuration, bow sprit, main, jib, spinnaker, centerboard, and so unstable in the water that it won't stay upright even without any sails hoisted...how is it not a skiff? Wikipedia even lists the 29'er as an example, among others, of a sailing skiff.

I have not rigged or sailed a 49er, however there rig tension is a lot less than a skiff. This includes the shorter 12 footer........ See above 9ers not skiffs.



Don't know much about the boat beaker you used on the 49er, however check out the one on the 18 above. firstly you pull as much tension on with the system using the 6 to 1 block set up. This is direct 6:1 down on the fore stay. After you have muscled that, then you crank on the 4:1 system that is on the end of a LOT of leverage. This is a LOT more than direct purchase on the fore stay. If you doubt me, set up this simple system and give it a go.






I have raced both Taipans and F16 sloops and sorry mate, the rig tension even under sail is a LOT more on a smaller 12 foot skiff.

Whilst the Taipan may have fair purchase on the main (7:1 on the ones I sailed), you did not use it all. Over sheeting was far to easy on these tiny cats and would very quickly desort the rig and sail. If I pulled on the main anywhere near what we did with the boat breakers, you would not have a rig left in the T4.9




We have sailed many times head to head with these monos and the angles are actually very simular. A cat is all about using low drag and efficency for speed. Skiffs are brute force. There is nothing suptle about it. Grab hold of an 18 kite and it feels like you are about to be pulled threw the blocks. My last ride upfront was on a I14 and whislt the kites are not as big as skiffs, the load was a lot greater than the Tornado. Monos don’t accelerate like a cat when graced by a gust and the loads are really taken up by the rig and the poor sucker holding the sheet. I recently jumped from Cherub to F16 to 12 skiff to Tornado to I14 to F18 and even the smallest mono (AUS Cherub) had larger kite loads than the Tornado.





You have not sailed a skiff until you have sailed a 12, 16 or 18 footer…… Until then, you can not fully appreciate a true skiff. It is like sailing an F16 and saying that you have experience what a Tornado has to offer………. Different league mate, different league.

Exactly. The skiff, as it is currently designed, has higher "static" rig tension compared to a cat. There is virtually zero mainsheet tensioning used to tension the leech of the main or to tension the headstay on a skiff. Therefore, almost all of the headstay tension on a skiff comes from the side stays.

In an 18ft skiff, I don't see how the tension in the shrouds could possibly be lower than a comparable size cat. The skiff shrouds anchor further inboard yet the rig generates more power due to higher righting moment.

14s and 49ers are smaller boats with smaller (upwind) rigs than most cats so their rig tensions may be lower.

flame on...

It's probably an australian thing. Unless you can trace a direct lineage down from the early harbour freighties and need to be manned by real, hard, tough men, with scars, it is not a skiff <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

SA is frequented by many true Skiffies and they are quick to jump on anybody that wants to use the term skiff as marketing BS.

Skiff is a class with its bloodlines tied back directly to the old traditional Waterman's boats of the 1800s and earlier. It is not about performance, even though they are at the pinical. It is about history.

If the skiff was not the pinical of monos, than new (not so)High Performance boats would be calling themself something else.

Imagine if in 50 years from now, every boat, any size and spec that adopted hydrofoils, started calling themself 'Moths'. Do you think the Moth class would be offended. Hell yes.

Anyway, this is not a thread for the 'What is a Skiff' debate, so we'll move on.

low budget hobie bob http://www.catsailor.com/bb_files/80123-picture027.jpg

Skiffies have a style you just can't buy <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

No no Steve, I am sure I have seen that "move" many times on the regatta course <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Okay, there we have found the core of the disagreement.

I'm indeed only really familiar with the 29-er, 49-er, laser 3000, laser 4000, laser 5000 and RS800 design. To me these were skiffs. I have only seen (and touched) a 18 footer twice in my life and none of the others. I did not test the rig tension at those times

Apparently these boats are alot different then the real skiffs as that boat breaker you show in the pic it a true monster !

That baby will easily pull effectively 16:1 or close to a 1000 kg.

The pic didn't load the first time I read your post, my internet exploder, ... well ... had some issues. I understand now.

With respect to the sheet loads I guess once again the difference is between the semi skiffs like 49-er and the true skiffs.

I remember we had only one ratchet block on the 49-er with only a 70-90 degree wrap around the sheeve. Remarkably that felt alright with me. Also these spis would collaps as soon as you tried to head up to a high broad reach.

He Stephen the way you make it sound it appears that the skiffs are not sailboats at all, but rather body building apparatus ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (joke)





I must really get a ride on a tornado sometime, apparently that is something else. I already feel that going from a Taipan 4.9 + spi to a modern F16 like the Blade is a big step up but it appears it gets better still. I never really believed that but maybe I need to do some fact checking in this case.

Wouter

So a "skiff" is not a boat configuration - it's a measure of the testosterone onboard?

They way the terminology is used over here is certainly different. If a boat measured in to the moth class rule, then yeah, it's a moth. The moth is a boat defined by class rules the same way an F18 is. Moth is a "dingy" (I guess?) and an F18 is a "catamaran" as is an I14 a "skiff", etc.

I guess the problem is that folks in Aussy land consider the term "skiff" to not be a reference to the confiuration of the boat as we do in the US and in Wouter-land.

Get a ride on one could be a very expensive mistake <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Chris249 who use to frequent here was a die hard T4.9 sailor and had raced with spinnakers. I lined him up a ride on an old clapped out Reg White with spinnaker at the Sydney International Regatta SIRs...... And well, he was smiling from ear to ear when he hit the shore and could not stop talking about it. He could not believe the power of the big Ts.

I do miss my T <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />....... But feel I have made the right choice with the F18 Worlds in AUS. Will have to return to Ts after though.

Hello gents,

Wouter, on an 18 we don't have 20mins to haul the spinnaker up and play with moving shroud bases. Like TA said, the boat relies on pure grunt; the wing mast could be beneficial if you could figure out a system that worked efficiently. One day someone will, right now there isn’t the need for one.

As the poor bowman (yeah right I love it!!!) on one of these craft I can tell you that the spinnaker loads are out of this world. I have sailed on a F18 with TA in 30+ knots and there was no comparison between the sheeting loads.

The wing mast has been experimented with a long time ago but then was shelved after a fair few of them blew up downwind under spinnaker in 25 knots.

For reference the number 1 spinnaker on an 18ft skiff is approximately 750ft^2. That will vary from boat to boat as the sail sizes are unrestricted.

I have blown up a rig breaker before trying to get the rig tension on and whilst wave jumping in 20 knots on Sydney Harbour snapped 6 of the 9 or so strands which comprise 4mm wire. I think you could say the 18 rig has a fair bit on. Must be off now chaps, lovely chatting to you.

Cheerio
T_E

There is one thing I still don't understand though.

For all their grunt and huge sailareas, the VYC handicap ratings (statistics based) are still slower then a Hobie 16's.

Even the now real skiff 49-er is rated faster then the 12, 14 and 16 foot skiffs as well B14, cherub. As a matter of fact it is the second fastest rated MONOHULL boat after the 18 foot skiff. Pretty much 85 % of the cats is rated faster.

How is that explained. Is the rating system wrong ?

http://www.nsw.yachting.org.au/site/yachting/nsw/downloads/Yardsticks04_05.pdf

Wouter

Wow, 750ft^2 Spin on an 18' skiff (or whatever you want to call it) I've got a spin of that size on my 27' Stiletto. 36' Masthead rig and its huge... I've run a 400ft^2 on a 20' boat and sheeted it back to the rear beam. Where do you put the other 350ft^2?

Just curious as I know nothing about Skiffs. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Clayton
S27, H16

Most of the skiffs listed never race in mixed fleets so data is not sent in (some numbers may be inaccurate, most are pretty good). The 18ft skiff is only slower by 2.5 points or so to the Tornado from that data (from memory) which would be an accurate reflection between the boats.

Pretty sure the foiling Moths are faster than a 49er too, will find out soon enough.

T_E

Hi Clayton,
The 18ft skiff rig is around 34' from memory and the bow sprit is around 12ft long. To be fair it is scary how much there is pulling you along. If you do a google image search you will be blown away at the sheer size of the sail area.
T_E

Wouter, I have sailed with 49ers and in NO WAY a Hobie 16 can be as fast as a 49er, something must be quite wrong with this yardstick.