I dont think you need a new platform every year to stay competitive in the F-18 circus. The Tiger platform has not changed that much over the years, has it? (new daggers, isn't that all?)

Boats like new A-cats are very expensive. Not to speak about a new Tornado, but the competitive life is quite long so you get to write it down over many years. If you can not afford to buy a boat, build it yourself <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> (but I agree, sailing is an expensive sport where you need lots of equipment. Beachcats are probably worse than other small dinghys)

I stand corrected, thanks Rolf.

As long as Bundy/Gashby are on a Tiger, I believe they will still dominate. Just look at all the other F18 results recently. The boys just had a bad one (If you can call 2nd bad)

Truth is guys, there is next to zero speed difference between the Tigers, Nacra (05) and Capricorns. I have not raced against any other makes.

Boat choice should more importantly come down to personal taste..... Where you loyalties lie, what looks more appealing to you, what feels better, cost or availability.

I think the Formula concept is great and can not believe the level of 'afordable'competition. I also believe whilst some may moan about the weight, it is this that makes the competition so close.

Disagree..... Many a sailor continue to perform on boats 3 or so years old. If you want to stay up towards the pointy end of the fleet, then train, train, train.... And you will have to stay up to date with sail cuts and replace your sails regularly as with any class.

And the A Class..... In Oz, along with the F18 and H16, are numericly the most popular active racing cats. I believe this trend is simular in many parts of the US. Europe ???

You're right, the Tiger platform only undergoes significant changes every other
year or so (tramp, daggers, mast, boom).

But reality is, if you want to stay competitive you need a new set of sails
every year (Main, jib, spi. Both due to wear and new cuts).
The price difference between buying a new set of sails (+/-€3K) or trading-in
for a new boat becomes so small that most people buy a new boat instead.

Tony, I dont know if changes to the tramp and boom is significant. Mast and daggers might be important. Has the extras really changed that often?

Good sails is a must in any class you want to compete, and do well in. Spis need to be changed often if you want to compete at the top level, jibs and mains less frequent. That is just the way it is. After some years the cuts stabilize, and you dont need to buy new sails due to advances in technology (whatever the sailmakers say).
Or you can start your own sail development program, learn a lot about sails and become a better sailor (time would be better spent on the water tough, if you have the opportunity).. Money to save that way, but you will need to work hard to match what the pros come up with. Good thing is that all they do are visible..

Here is a pic of our new (homemade) spi. We are having lots of fun working on how to get the best out of it.

Just to clarify,

The Tiger mast extrusion has not changed. Only the hardware has (most significantly the spreaders).

The Tiger daggerboards have not changed, either. Carbon boards are allowed, but they are the same planform and cross section as the fiberglass boards.

The IHCA Rules Committee is considering a change to the Tiger rudders, but that is still in the planning stages.

Matt,

Did the daggerboard location in the hull change? I keep hearing rumours that it did but never anything definite.

The dagger board location has not changed.

One or the top sailors on the Hobie (atchu!!!MB) mentioned that he has been working with the factory to keep the Tiger up to snuff competitively. One of the main things that he thinks will work are newer rudders. Something akin to the Marstrom Tornado Rudders. I saw a Tiger in France with this set up and asked the skipper about the caracteristics. He said that it drives like a sports car with that rudder setup. He thought it drove like a truck before.

If you are looking for reasons to buy a new boat there are plenty, but I do not think that many of the formula 18 designs today are "off the pace". The Tiger is still sailing very well against the others. I think the best reason to get a new boat is to avoid putting too much into your present boat if there is trade in value. As mentioned before you can almost upgrade to a new boat rather that outfit your boat with new sails. This also has the advantage of getting another sailor into the class, who would otherwise not afford a new boat.

Each boat may have a specific arena that it will excel in. I think that getting a nice "overall" boat and sailing it well can get you the consistant results you should be looking for. If you are only sailing in one place then you can buy a specific boat that covers those conditions. Or if there are no other types of boats you can sail what everyone else sails.

As for the price of sailing in this class...you would only complain if you have not looked at what it costs to sail in some other classes. A brand new "high performance" boat in the price range of $15,000 to $18,000 is not too bad. We are running the I-14 Worlds out of our Yacht Club next week. I have asked them about what a boat runs and it is expensive, about twice what our boats cost to setup competitively. Along with all the rigging that goes on with that boat, I will take the Formula 18...but I would love to get on one of those for a day.

Later,
Dan

[color:"blue"] [/color]
[color:"red"] [/color] Since I have been accused of some kind of sailing CRIME....or at least that is how I feel, I thought I owed it to all my fans and non fans to speak up for my self.

My first comment is that anyone who was offended by this PARTIAL QUOTE needs to find a Hobby (and this is not HOBIE SMACK....so don't even try to go there). My letter was sent as a congradulatory note to the Capricorn Sailors at the worlds. I never expected it to be posted anywhere nor was it meant to be anything except a notice of job well done to the Capricorn Sailors. I personally think it is great to have multiple manufacurers in a class because it keeps them all on their toes and in the end, the sailors win! For a long time many manufacturers have paid good money to have good sailors sail their boats....THIS HAS AND STILL SELLS BOATS FOR THEM....not all manufacturers can afford to do that...It is somewhat easy for a good sailor to make a boat look good. This is not a bad thing...but at the Worlds, I do not BELIEVE there were any paid sailors on Capricorns....this was another reason that congradulations were in order because these guys are darned good. Every manufacturer or dealer likes to see their boat doing well and should be happy when it happens as there is only one direction to move once you have reached the top....and unless you work hard on it..it is only a matter of time before you are no longer at the top and fighting your way back to get there. I think we all just need to shut up and sail because this week it may be Capricorn on top, next week may be Infusions turn and I am sure Hobie, who has had many turns in the past will be there again.

For the person who started this SMACK thing...SHAME ON YOU...and shame on you for not haveing the nads to put the whole letter up there and letting people get riled up over nothing. And for anyone who bit....I feel for you if you can let something like that get to you. I feel horrible that Bundy, who is a beloved friend of mine, got any flack from anyone at all while he was at the Pre Olympics....SHAME ON YOU IF YOU BOTHERED HIM WITH THIS!


I think all the factories need to wake up...they all need to support the sport as will will happen at the North American F18 Championships

Hobie has tried and will most likely continue trying to be an entity by them selves. The nightmare of pulling out of the Tiger Nationals in San Fransico, has giving all cats a bad name. They need to promote the F18 thing and racing in general with all sailors. Keeping sailors from racing at a regatta because they do not have a particular boat hurts all sailors as well as the orgaizers. We all have a pretty big sand box and if we play together, it will be a win win situation for the sailors...isn't that what it is SUPPOSE to be about.

I am truely excited about Capricorn in the US and thrilled with the the quality of the boat we see coming over to the US. Is the Capricorn better than its compitition?....I think so and I hope to partisipate in keeping it that way...but again this is only a positive thing for the sailors as it is an incentive for the others to keep up as it will be for Capricorn if they fall behind in quality ...I can only hope that we can once again see the POSITIVE interest in sailing that I saw many years ago when I became involved in sailing...ON A HOBIE 16 by the way!

I AM A STRONG BELIEVER THAT IF YOU ARE GOING TO TRY AND CAUSE TROUBLE YOU SHOULD SIGN YOUR NAME...I am Jill Nickerson....AND this is MY OPINION on the matter. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Jill,

Could you post your entire "...notice of job well done to the Capricorn Sailors."?

Thanks.

ah... just read the thread from the top... someone posted it already.

Must not be enough racing going on though.... when your standard "atta boy.. way to go" email to cap owners only gets spun up as marketing tactics and hobie smack.
Pretty good spin cycle....

But ... How come nobody wants to deal with the pink elephant in the room?
Can the F18 sailors in North America support three national championships (F18, Nacra F18 Hobie F18)?

So for 2006 ... 5 F18's at the Nacra Class nationals, 0 boats at the Hobie Class nationls.... (Not to mention a FUBAR with St Francis YC)

Do they run the same game plan next year? (who is they... anyway?)

Do you think F18 sailors might have a public dialog and try to reach a consensus... or will they just trust that god will provide more venues like St Francis or Racine YCs that they may screw over at the last minute by not showing up?

Based on this year's track record... WHY WOULD ANY CLUB ASSIST YOU in the future?

Good Luck... But It's hard to believe that this is a succesful strategy for attracting new racers to the class either! (The high performance dinghy sailors probobly aren't impressed by this sorry track record).

Mark

Call it a lemon, call it an orange. We're close to having 50 boats at the F18 North American and no matter how you cut it, peel it, or slice it, that's sweet. I'm about sick of this gloom and doom stuff. Those that continue to fight the major current will continue to fight the current - eventually they'll learn that past a certain point it's harder and even futile paddling against it. The momentum is pretty much undeniable at this point....but I never did notice the elephant in this room.

Having multiple manufacturers is great for the class...having one manufacturer with a clear advantage is not good for the class (which, BTW, isn't even close to happening yet). People like the ability of being able to choose their brand. People serious about their sport have shiny-itus and buy new boats - having slight (read: perceived) advances in technology gets these people to continue to upgrade (myself included). Used boats go back into the market ... it's a good cycle and a self propelling one. A huge leap forward in technology would really hurt the class but the rules are in place (and would/have quickly gone into place) to protect against that.

Success is entirely dependant upon how you spend time between failures.

I have a hit list of fortune cookies...I'll keep 'em coming.

This year's Alter Cup winner is a Capricorn distributer.

Another former Alter Cup winner who currently sails a Tiger told me he thinks the Infusion will be the new boat to beat.

Hull shape made a small but significant difference in the A-cat world, with the Flyer and A-2. To maintain their market lead, Hobie must continue to make small but significant improvements as long as the F18 platform evolves.

If Hobie were to upgrade the hulls without changing the rest of the platform, it would not obsolete the existing tiger fleet more than earlier upgrades did. Upgrading the hulls and calling it a Tiger would be perfectly reasonable, IMHO, as it's just another minor improvement. The only downside is that this minor upgrade is prohibitively expensive, which will alienate some in the short term.

The new bow-piercing designs should help most in short chop, where they can penetrate every second wave, stabilizing the rig aloft compared to the Tiger, giving the new hulls an significant advantage in hobby-horse conditions. The new hulls also have less windage, and the Capricorn is said to plane downwind. Downwind in really rough stuff, I have to wonder if the new hulls are a benefit or a liability compared to the Tiger.

I recently overheard some top SoCal Tiger sailors wondering out loud if buying a new Tiger now would be a wise investment. Well, of course they should wonder until it becomes clear if Hobie will evolve the platform aggressively enough to stay competitive. Hobie must keep these frequent-buyers happy, and I think nothing would reassure them more than a new hull shape.

Of course, I have to agree with MB about the Hobie Rudders: They stink. Marstroms (and AHPCs) have factory set rake for a light helm and no possibility of mis-drilling. The Marstroms, I believe, also have laminar flow sections for less drag when not maneuvering. They are also feather light compared to Hobie's. They also have simple reliable lockdown mechanisms that are more reliable and easier to operate. The only advantage the Hobies have are that they are cheap and sturdy, which makes them good for the vacation rental fleets.

Flying fifteen is what to look at here to see the result.
Classic/silver and late shapes make three fleets. The silver fleet ends up worth less than the classics and have to be given away as a competitive boat.

I've been called many names over the past years for given you all the glimps of the future. So there is nothing you can do anymore that will make me think twice about repeating this message>


The F18 branch will survive and thrive.

All the F18 related One-design spin-off and directly competing classen will decrease, die and vanish all together. F18 One-design races exist in the imagination only as the big manufacturers WILL follow the developments in the F18 class and hence the OD class is not truly a OD class, not even by a long shot.

Regard the F18 class as the Borg from startrek.

"Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated"

Not there is anything wrong with that. We wanted big fleets of comparable boats right ?


Wouter

The Tiger design is managed by a group that is intent on it being a competitive F18. Hobie USA doesn't have a great deal of control over it's configuration - IMHO, while I don't agree with the logic, they've done a pretty decent job in configuration control to maintain some fashion of Hobie One Design racing with the Tiger. My point is, the priority of the Tiger design is for F18 racing so the only reason I would suspect you haven't seen any major changes is that they continue to be comfortable with the performance of the boat.

Just thought I would add a little to this conversation as it is predominately about me.

Firstly congratulations to Helge and Christian Sach they sailed a faultless and very impressive regatta at the F18 Worlds and are very deserving champions.

Glenn and I lost this years F18 Worlds in the qualifying series. Actually race 6, we went the wrong way on the first upwind. We went right and the breeze came in from the left..We got it wrong! We were going the wrong way fast and finished 18th. Game over. Unfortunately for us it was still in the qualifying split fleet series and our main competition (Sach's, Mourniac, Echavarri) were not in this race and did not also suffer a high score as they were in the next heat and the breeze had settled in by the time they raced.

This left only 3 races in the final series to pull back 18 points. Big job. We went for it. We had 3 perfect risky pin end starts under black flag and finished 3,3,1. Sachs were the only ones that did not crack under the pressure and held on. That’s why they are champions.

Glenn and I will be sailing a standard Tiger rigged the same as we had for 2004, 2005 and 2006 at the 2007 F18 Worlds as we want to win.

Bundy

The organgrinder has spoken! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for writing.
I am interested to know if you are paid some sort of sponsorship or fee for being loyal to Hobie by Hobie? Do you pay for the boat? Does this have any affect on your choices of ride?
Also, is there a learning curve for you in changing platforms that would slow a coice to change?