Direct quote from the AHPC website (news item from new US distributor; see www.ahpc.com.au):

"I think we are about to explode with the Capricorn in the US and we are very excited about being on board...Darren Bundock and Glenn Ashby have been on fire in every race they have sailed this year. It was painfully obvious that their choice of boats, being a Tiger, really hurt their performance at the Worlds."

Is the Capricorn really that much better?

Manufacturer smack (spin) is worse than sailor smack!

In a nutshell, no the Capricorn is not that much better. They are all platforms that you can win on. "Shiny-itus" is abundant in this fleet.

Tiger is old and has had those years to optimise tuning. Capricorn is new and tuning is still to be sorted to some extent. If Capricorn is not faster... why design new boats?

so we can buy the old boats nacracrobies for 10cents on the dollar!

I agree, but the Capricorn has been around for long enough now that it shouldn't be an issue.

"...Why design New boats...." how long after the Tiger did the Nacra F18 come out?

Unfortunately we don't have any Caps in NZ yet but my understanding from contacts in Aus is that the Capricorn probably has an advantage in light winds (as seen in this year's Texel and worlds results) but that it suffers in choppy conditions.

As Jake said, all the platforms are very close. Each will have its day depending on conditions and who is steering. For those looking for a competitive boat at the right price get a second hand Nacra F18 (old version) and put an Infusion wing mast on it. Do that and I don't believe you'll see a noticeable difference between the old and new Nacras around the course.

Sure and from what I have read about Infusions latest the Cap might be old before its time also. A good skip and crew on a slower boat will always beat a lesser crew on a better boat.... But two equally excellent teams on boats which are not equal means..... Two years from now we will know..

yummmmmmm ten cents on the dollar....

If you qoute someone please use the whole thing. Not just what you want people to read. This was not Anti-Tiger Smack!!!!

"This is great news....congrats to all....I think we are about to explode with the Capricorn in the US and we are very excited about being on board. Robbie Daniel, who is a Tornado sailor, like Sachs, Landenberger and Darren Bundock and Glenn Ashby, said that the Capricorn was the first boat that he has sailed other than the Tornado that gives you the sportcar feel of the Tornado. By the looks of things, many other Olympic sailors are looking at the F18 Capricorn to do their cross training.

Darren Bundock and Glenn Ashby have been on fire in every race they have sailed this year. It was painfully obvious that their choice of boats, being a Tiger, really hurt their performance at the Worlds. I believe this is one of the first times they have been beat by the Sach brothers after racing for years against them in the Tornado class. Although the Sachs are great sailors in their own right, it is obvious to see that the boat did them well!

Congrats to everyone. Glad to be on board the Capricorn express. We look forward to distributing all the AHPC in the US and we are finding the Capricorn buzz growing here almost as fast as in Europe."

As a matter of interest do you have a financial gain to be made out of people seeing the Capricorn as a better boat than the Tiger?

Nice marketing. Well, we are use to people picking at Hobie to try and scratch out their "share" of sales. Nothing new.

Now the latest:

Dominating most all events in the Tornado Class, Darren Bundock and Glenn Ashby...

Seems their choice of boat at the recent Olympic Test Regatta in China, once again, played a factor in their recent results? They placed 6th.

Oh yeah, they ALL sailed Tornados over there.

http://www.sailing2008.org/SpecailTopic/...s/r-tornado.htm

Matt,
I hear what you are saying, however China was a very bizare set of racing circumstances. Alot of Favorites got their buts kicked.
I think you can argue that Bundy and Gashby are the most acomplished pairs in multihull sailing today. Glen's win this year in the A cat worlds was as dominating as is possible.

As to whether the Hobie tiger is still competitive in F-18 racing, I think is is way to early to tell. If the factory is unwilling to change the hull shape, I think eventualy it will be less competitive. That is the inherent risk in promoting a Tiger One Design that does double duty as a F-18 boat. However when you look at the results since F-18 racing started the tiger has dominated, both in market share, wins, and in top 10 finishes at the worlds. It seems you have a pretty good gig going so far.

I do admit that Jill spun it in her favor.

Sail Fast,
Eric

Sorry guys, I am missing something here.
What is the inference of this post about Ashby and co and their Tornado?
Hobie have taken weeks to answer this so it must be a good argument for their side of thought.
While I know these guys are great sailors, they would have to be truely stunning to sail so many other boats and then get up to top five in Olympic contention surely?

What Matt probably hints at is that the the Tornado is one-design, and almost single manufacturer one design at that. This proves that even the best sailors dont win all the time, so the Tiger is just as fast as the Capricorns, Infusions, Mattiasports, Cirriuses etc. Problem is that Bundy and Ashby is at their best in a breeze, and the conditions in China which Matt refers to was mostly low to no wind conditions. In low wind conditions Roman Hagara and Hans P is the Tornado team to watch.

Please nobody get their noses out of joint but as I look at it the only real cat catagory is Tornado. That is the World measure of off the beach cat sailing.
I understand that sailors of other cats can and must be truely excellent but what I said was that I simply would not expect any sailor, no matter how good to measure up in the top of the World basis without devoting every day to the winning of it.
The idea that that the Tiger has delivered an odd result in the hads of Ashby and his partner sounds like grabbing at straws. It seems that that style of boat is their bread and butter.

Warbird,
I think if you look at the classes that Glen Ashby sails in you will find that the A class is his primary boat. Bundock has been at the top of the Tornado game for many years. I think the A class and the tornado are the most competitive single and double handed cats in the world. These two dominate these classes.
Eric

Bundy and Asbhy has done very well in the F-18s (on a Tiger) also. Did they not win the worlds in 2004?

You are very right. I did not take the A into account. I was thinking more of the two handed change to Tornado from 18s.
And I don't think anyone is questioning the class of these people.
As I see it this thread is about the Tiger and its viablity against latest boat styles. I questioned the thin argument a Hobie rep had to suggsest they are winners still.
Having noted the rethoric the boat companies all use in relations to claims about their boats I don't feel confident in any argument anyone but unaffiliated boat sailors would put forward.

Plus 2003 and 2005

Just checked, and Bundy/Ashby did win the 2005 event. But 2003 was the Boulogne brothers. No matter, Bundy/Ashby are one of the very best teams on this planet anyway. Question is wether the Tiger platform has seen the end of its winning streak becouse the Capricorns, Infusions, Blades, Mattiasport and the other new ones are faster platforms. Or if they are still equal (why buy new boats if they are).

The Tacticat game is a good example that sailing skills and a little luck go a long way.
The Capricorn is IMHO the fastest platform, followed closely by the Tiger and Infusion by lower margins (Judging from the various results).

What you're seeing now is that Hobie doesn't change its platform but instead invests more in sail-development and fine-tuning (Either through the factory or the sailing community).
IMHO the problem with formula sailing is that if you want to stay competitive as a non-pro sailor you are forced to buy a new boat every year, or with every iteration of new material. Something that people without sponsors will not be able to afford. Which is probably the same reason why you see so little A-cats (2nd hand A2=€18K!).