No futher comment Wouter......... You are a god

Isn't self-agrandizing a tell-tale sign of the prototypical tragic hero?
:P

Let me shift the discussion away from the personal back and forth.

Stephen... you mentioned Capricorn Nationals and of course you are doing the F18 Nationals and worlds.

What is your definition of Class here... Why do you have or support “Capricorn Nationals”?

IMO, It would be like having a Nationals for Flyer A cats… but not Mark IVs or V’s or Marstroms or A2’s etc etc. What is the point?

How does having a builder sponsored exclusive nationals help your racing class which I assume is the F18 class.

What am I missing here? Don’t you undercut your class… “F18’s”… by setting up a situation where you are competing for your members time and money with a subset regatta called Capricorns, or Nacra or Hobie nationals?

One could make the argument that the F18 class should pull and ISAF move and declare sailors who compete in unsanctioned nationals… like Capricorn nationals out of bounds and banned from the F18 nationals

I would like to talk a bit about outdated designs that are still raced.

Why would you change a class that has a strong following in any particular area? If there is a class of Taipans that sail competitively out of a particular club they have a great situation. They do not have to spend money updating an "outdated" design. There will be very close racing around the entire course. They will have to get better at tactics do move up in the ranks.

At my club there is a very large fleet that has not been manufactured in, I do not know how many years. They are Cal 20s. Slow and old, but they are all the same speed. The best monohull sailors in the area are racing this boat. It is by far the most competitive fleet of racers. As far as I know, “big” fleets of these are only sailed in So Cal. But there can be as many as 40 to 70 boats (Cal20s) racing Wet Wednesdays.

The “good” about the Taipan, I suspect, is that it is a cheap boat to get into at this point. If there is a decision to upgrade this to the F16 universally how many sailors will drop from the class? I suspect the expense of just the upgrade (to F16) is about the price of a used boat.

I like the idea of having a separate boat manufactured for the F16 class so as not to confuse the issue. There will be Taipan sailors that cannot afford a new F16. They may want to upgrade but, by doing so, they are making a conscious decision about moving on. Let the 4.9 be what it is and have some great sailing until it dies by itself. The old 4.9s will be able to upgrade to F16s then.

Later,
Dan

Capricorn are merely doing here what the other big two (Nacra & Hobie) do as well trying to offer both one design and formula racing. The difference is that the people organising the Capricorn nationals actually invited the other F18 classes to attend (although I belive none did). It would have been interesting to see how they would have handled it if someone won the Capricorn nationals on a hobie.

Jack Young of Performance Catamarans did that here in the US a while back - hosted the very first F-18 Nationals during his Performance Race Week in Pensacola Beach, Florida. I remember some Tigers racing - even a Twister, as I recall. It was a fun event, ahead of it's time. Thanks Kirk Newkirk and Jack for taking the "risk" of a Hobie winning Performance Nationals. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

All hail king Woulter! You da man! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Tiger Mike

What do you do about ISAF boats that also comply with the F18 rule such as the Tiger. IMHO that is one of the attractions of F18 - the best of both worlds. I enjoy my OD Tiger sailing and also F18 sailing. As the Capricorn grows I'm sure that will be an attraction for many of it's sailors too.

Furthermore, the fastest way for me to abandon a class would be for said class to try and force me to only sail their events. In Australia at least they would be dumped by a lot of sailors so fast their heads would spin.

I don't actually know if Capricorn is a National class in Oz (Steve?) however the symantecs of naming their national titles aside (one issue I do agree with), any manufacturer trying to build their brand with extra attractions should be encouraged.

Tiger Mike

Tiger Mike

The more "nationals" there are the more chance you have of winning a "nationals".

Of course this is true. But the chat was detailing the fact that Taipans had fallen behind other boats that went to F16. My point was that IF the Taipan was a competitive boat in F16 form then have the best of both Worlds. Keep the 4.9 class but have the possiblity of factory upgrades to F16 by not going to a whole new platform for F16. The two things are not mutually exclusive. Then everyone gets the choice.

Interesting... The A cat guys do not take this point of view. I don't know of an A class builder who meets the need of sponsoring a weekend builder class only regatta ... much less a a XXX builder nationals.

I don't think you had Reg White Tornado nationals competing against Marstrom nationals back in the day.

I believe they have two builders for 505 dinghy’s and I don't think the 505 guys have builder specific nationals, worlds etc etc.

Can you point me to any other sailing classes that do this?

The points raised in support of this notion are... More nationals.. = more trophies = more champions.

and... Hey... anything a builder does to support racing is good... don't get in their way.
(my restatements)

My response to the first comment is... OK, but why devalue champions this way.... You leave the door open to... Well X, didn’t race the #$%#^ nationals.. he was at the *()* nationals and would have... could have... should have... Whatever.

In support of rejecting this notion that more champions the better.. I would point to Stuart Walkers comments on B Fleets and how in his opinion they don't grow participation or meet the needs of the sailors. (B and C fleets being another way to give more trophies away and crown more champions) [Stuart does not race on Lake Woebegone... US Joke... all kids in Lake Woebegon are above average]


My comment to the second point is to Really ask this question. IS IT A ALWAYS A GOOD THING.. Does it build the larger class in this F18 instance. HOW does it buid the larger class.... (If some sailors will only compete at the one design national, then a one design F18 is positive... but does it undercut the turnout, status, clout, appeal, etc etc of the larger class?

So far in the US... the evidence is that builder nationals have had 0 and 5 boats and the result is to burn up a couple of yacht club hosts.

So... I am puzzled... It's not obvious to me.

Mark

I hope you don't take my comment abo0ut more championships/more champions as in support of the idea. IF F18 is the box rule then only one championship should exist. To lock other boats out of a race is to admit defeat IMHO.
mmore racing is good but a title devalued is a bad thing.
However, I think it is spurious to suggest that Tornado rules and F18 are in any way similar or can be compared. Tornado have never allowed anything like the differences in platform that have sparked this debate.

Hi Dan

I think the number of boats that you point to who are committed to racing and ACTUALLY going racing on Wed is the key. The fun factor is high.. just tempored by the slow speed that it occurs at... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I will also snob out <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />... and say... what's the dif.. between one slow tub C20 and another slow tub... Flying Scott... or Albacore or Jet 14 or Snipe or Hampton Fill in you favorite tub... these are the ones on the bay... Nobody is switching classes either!.

Don't know the history... but I wonder what other dinghy classes have a foot hold on the left coast?

My ignorance will show through here... I don't see the differences in these monos. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

But... I do see huge differences between A cats, F18's(F16's), Hobie 16's, Hobie 20's and the Spin 20's Nacra, Tornado). Each of these kinds of boats suit a different market of the performance sailor, with respect to size and weight of the crew, experience needed, and power managed by the teams.

I agree with your point of view that the builder should take a different tack with the F16 Cap and not an F16 Taipan. Let the class go its way.

Hell they have been predicting the demise of the mid atlantic TheMightyHobie18 fleet for 10 plus years... The boats are 10 years older but the culture of the sailors hasn't changed and they hang in there and go racing. They probably stop sailing cats if the class made any changes.. they certainly aren't moving to a different hobie fleet after all of this time. (These guys are a bit of the counter example to the Cal 20's you point to)... They Simply don't align with the dominant class in the region, the Hobie 16's. ... So there is another factor to consider.

Mark

I think that I agree with WARBIRD?? The Taipan is, after all a "manufacturers" boat/design. That is how it started it's life, sure the members of the association that has grown up around it do, apparently have a large say in what ever direction it has and will travel, and that's fine, but it is still a manufacturers boat and if the manufacturer decided to take it upon themselves to "upgrade" all new 4.9 Taipans to full F16 status just what harm would that do to the class? The "standard 4.9's could still sail as an OD class as they do now with no threat to their status quo, and the "new" ones already have a ready made "class/formula" to compete within. If any buyer wanted to order a new Taipan in it's OD configuration I am quite sure that the manufacturer would be only too willing to oblige, so "where lies the problem"?
As regards the “harm/damage to the class/formula” of F18 (or any other formula/class of cat) having a “bite at both worlds” by organising both their own “class nationals (or worlds)” and competing also in their “open” formula nationals, it has become apparent to me over a lifetime of sailing that there seems to be no “rhyme or reason” as to why one class will “prosper and grow” over many many years, while another class, which, when looked at in detail, would appear to be the superior of the two, only grows, glitters and dies in a relatively short period of time. The same goes for how the class promotes itself. The methods that one class will use I.E in this instance OD “class” nationals as well as open formula nationals, that prove to be highly successful for one class, prove to be equally disastrous for another. In hindsight we can all offer definitive reasons why one failed and the other prospered but to try to “predict” how the end results will turn out is to set oneself up for a big fall. I can remember Hobie Alter saying about his early 14’ cat, “I don’t think that there would be more than 20 guys in the world that would want one of these, lets go surfing”

Don't believe it is...... The event was the Taipan Nationals and the Capricorns were invited to race along side the Taipan 5.7s. All other F18 classes were invited with a hope to make it an F18 Regatta also..... However for reason best left unsaid, they declined.

I am currently putting together a proposal for our club to host the 2007 AUS F18 Chamionships. The hardest part is deciding on a date that does not conflicted with NACRA, Hobie, Capricorn or major open regattas.

Most of the Nationals are held around the Christmas / New Year period and the F18 Association wishes to hold it before other Nationals. This means pre Christmas...... Our season starts in September and betweens Sept and Dec... The regatta calander is very busy.

It may not work for the Acats. No idea really - I have never sailed one competitively and right now it's not a class that I know much about. My only comment is that because the A's have or haven't done something be it good or bad for their class, doesn't mean it will or won't necessarily work for another class (or even different specific markets)



No idea if they did or didn't. Same thing goes though. AFAIK the T is a specific design with very limited freedoms manufactured by several builders over the years. Once again, it's a very different class from F18.



Weather others do it or not has no relevance. In our market down here it seems to be working quite well and several boat owners have noted that it is a large contributing reason why they chose their particular model boat.



I don't think it devalues anything. IMHO it is very poor form to make similar comments that you suggest (Although it does go on I agree). Whoever wins any particular regatta can only beat who turns up to race against him and to say that somebody else "would" have won is very disrespectful to the champion and should be niped in the bud very quickly. This goes on weather there is 1 championship or 5.



We are getting a little off the track here however I am not a fan of B and C fleets and/or handicap prizes. Some think differently and I respect their point of view but disagree.


Sorry Mark but the US is not the only market in the world. If it doesn't work there then don't pursue it - simple. It has proven to work in Europe and also down here and I hope it builds.

Tiger Mike.

FYI AHPC does offer an F16 kit for the Taipan 4.9. With my boat, I could sail in either F16 or 4.9 OD, but it's not really relevant in the US since 4.9s are few in number.