From the "Pitchpoling Capricorns" thread:



Definition of talent:
* A marked innate ability, as for artistic accomplishment.
* Natural endowment or ability of a superior quality.


Is it really so? Are most of the top sailors born with a talent the mid-fleeters and tail enders lack? I see posts where sailors sort of take this for granted the whole time..

I dont agree with this, I think the top sailors are where they are becouse of their traning and hard work. There might be individuals who get in rythm with wind and waves easier than others, but it is still not impossible to learn the same skills with enough traning and dedication. I would go so far as saying that the best sailors win becouse of their talent is a subconcious way to avoid looking critically at your own skills and what to work on.
Harsh, yes, but I think it is the truth. My experiences from other sports just reinforce this. I have seen anti-talents grow to champions, while the early talents fizzed out when they met resistance.

Perhaps it is just a case of terminology mixups, where talented is used with the same meaning as skilled?


Opinions?

I almost agree with you Rolf.

People do have some talent for things by birth etc, but training and hard work is far more important.

There have ocean sailors in my family since about the 1700's (when ocean sailing was REAL dangerous). Has it made me a better sailor ? Maybe. I do at times do things that I cannot explain why and they usually work out, so I believe people are born with some talent.

I'm also crap at english etc so I was born without this talent; I was far better at Maths than my class mates at school and also Computers and numercy, so yes, people are born with talents, but they only make a small difference.

Training, education and physical fitness are most important in our sport.

I think it's both. Talent and preparation yield exceptional results.

IMO, there is a third requirement of excellence and that is drive or ambition. Most of us are lazy, to some extent, and just don't put forth maximum effort. Top sailors come much closer to this ideal maximum. The same is probably true of any other endeavor.

Pete,

there you go using the word talent again. Do you really think that the top sailors all are born with some ability you and I dont have? Or did you really mean skill? I think that if we look at the background of all top sailors, we will find a long career with years on the water both racing and training. It is the time spent training and working on the sport that makes them winners, in my opinion. Ambition or perhaps more accurately, motivation, is certainly part of the formula that makes them winners. But this was not my point here, I was looking more for why the word talent have been used so much.

As Simon say, sometimes we dont know why we do what we do, and go faster becouse of it. But I dont see anything confirming the "talent" theory there. It's just that our subconscious remember something which is applied and works. The same can be said if you dont know why you do stupid things also <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Its 99% training.

"sometimes we dont know why we do what we do, and go faster becouse of it" does not indicate a talent just something you have learn't through training which is now instinctive. A good example of this is riding a bike, when you first learn you are told that if the bike leans one way you steer the same way to get it upright again. You soon forget this but still do it. Then when you come to teach your kids you have to try and remember what you forgot!

I spent years crewing a cat before I had my own boat to helm, I found that I was quite a good helm straight away because I had subconciously learn't so much while crewing.

Gareth

Good topic

I would also add to this; access to resources. All top sailors are better at what they do, because good amounts of them have access to resources that usually mid and lower fleet folks do not have.

Example:
An Olympian, obviously to become an Olympic there has to be motivation, skill and yes I would say talent. That is secondary. The Olympians have access to good coaches, good boats, and all out a good team.

Usually your non-Olympic sailor does not have these resources, or it becomes extremely hard for him or her to get access due to outside reasons like work, life, family etc.

It is like having the right tool for the right job. If you do not have the tools, you will not be able to complete a job.

While I agree that training is a large part of sailing/racing well, "talent" does certainly exist and is important. I think everyone can agree that different people have different strengths and weaknesses - the origin of those, be it through upbringing, nutrition, or if we are hardwired to certain dispositions at birth, is debatable. However, no matter how much training you give a kid, not everyone can be a child prodigy viola player at age 12, an upper echelon physicist at 30, or a champion sailor at any age.

Robi,

I dont agree on all points. It helps to have a support team around you, but you still need to have the skills to pick the right side, trims sails and change gears. Put a top sailor on a boat back in the fleet, and he will still do well (of course, sails and boat need to be reasonably well maintained). I belive it is time on the water and skills that make a team succesful. A coach helps you along making you learn faster, better and smarter, but it's still the sailors who must develop their skills.
The olympians make a choice, where they sacrifice a secure job, regular income etc. to qualify for the games. Unless you can somehow get a major sponsor to pay you for sailing. Usually you need to do well and 'get a name' before that is possible. F-16 class should be perfect for that, sail for an hour every day before work, get really good and go to Zandvoort 2007 and kick butt <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Could you elaborate on exactly what this "talent of the top sailors" is? Is it the ability to trim for superior boatspeed, superior VMG, tactical decisions, strategic decisions, great starting or??As far as I know, all those skills can be taught and learnt, even if somebody have a talent for hitting all the shifts(which is not that important in cat racing, as we dont tack unless it is a significant shift) or keeping the boat in the groove all the time.

Jake,

On reflection, perhaps you are right, I think my previous statement that it is 99% training is overstepping the mark a little. There are a bunch of talents that can make smeone a good sailor, and those talents may not be immediatly obvious. Sailing requires a good combination of physical and mental skills. Like so many sports and pastimes the skills that make you good at sailing could equally have made you good at another activity if you applied yourself to that instead.

I recall Ellen Macarthurs drive on top gear, a lady that does not normally drive a car scored the fatsest ever lap time, perhaps if she had applied herself to motor racing instead of sailing she would have been the first female F1 champion.

Gareth

I think you are spot on with 99% training Gareth. Jake is of course right that not everybody can be a child prodigy viola player at age 12 or similar, or perheps even better, a grand piano concert player. If you have too small hands, you can never play the really hard pieces so there is no use even aiming for that carer. But I dont think sailing is like that. With normal concentration and the will/motivation to work with yourself, you dont need a special talent to do well. And that goes a far way with a lot of sports. Tiger Woods was a prodigy, but that dont neccesarily mean that the rest of the top golf players also have a special talent. I think the same goes for sailing. Some small percentage might have a special talent, but not all the sailors described as "talented" these days. A lot of training will bring you to the top.

I saw that too and thought it was a remarkable indication of 'talent'. Be it a car or a boat, the person on the helm needs to have an inate ability to feel and interpret the actions of the vessel whether it's the straining of the tires and the suspension or the healing of a boat and the slippage of the keel. After that, it's a matter of identifying where the speed limits of those strains are and keeping them right on the edge. I think this 'seat of the pants' ability is a common trait shared by most top notch vehicular racers. For someone that doesn't share a 'natural' ability to this talent, it is a difficult trait to learn because it is a difficult, nearly impossible, one to describe step-by-step and is developed largely through experience.

The next key ability is to learn - and while a certain aspect of learning is influenced by 'talent' (speedy conceptual comprehension and situational awareness) it is also heavily influenced by motivation and can be greatly enhanced through training. Learning results in skill and while some aspects of 'talent' allow you to increase your skill faster or more slowly than someone else, a lacking degree of 'talent' in learning can be overcome through training and coaching.

Someone that is lacking in this seat-of-the-pants 'talent' can certainly still win through skill (training) but they will find it difficult to be consistant because they are reacting more on their training and experience than their situational and sensational awareness.

My observations over the years is that through training you can become very good and compete with the top of the Fleet
The champions have what has been called the winning edge.
That is they are about 3% better than the rest and that is something that can't be taught.
Tiger was mentioned. His scoring average is a very small percentage (3%)better than the guy that earned one tenth the money he did. This can be applied to many sports and in business.
The very old saying: "It's the nut on the end of the tiller" that makes all the differance is always true.
Like in Football, Baseball etc.. , you can't teach foot speed.
In sailing, I don't think you can teach the touch or the instinct that makes you that 3% better and ultimately a champion.
I have been lucky enough to sail against guys like Enrique Figueroa, Bob Curry, Hobie Jr, Randy Smyth and Carlton Tucker. All National and World Champions. They all started winning very early in their sailing carreers and kept it going for many years. They all have the "It" factor you can't teach.

Ellen's TG performance was partly put down to here being a good listener and quick learner. News on the inside is that she spent a long time listening very hard to the Stig (tame racing driver on TG) and then implemented exactly what the Stig said. Now, anyone who drives probably has a good idea what the racingline around a cirsuit shold be. Well I did to, but last sunday I was at Silverstone Driving a Lotus exige and Ferrari F355 around the testing circuit and my race instructor pointed out the error of my ways; my opinion of the racing line was way out. After some instruction my laps were getting faster and faster. Top speed I managed was 100MPH down hanger straight before she corrected my lines, after 130MPH.

Being a good listener is important.

I would think that the ability to learn and listen could be considered a talent as well.

My wife calls me the computer sponge. I seem to pick up on "how things work" fairly well as long as there is a logic to it. I am fairly good with cars, computers and other devices, but do not do well with people in general.

I would think that the top sailors have more than one if not many talents AND work their a$$es off to stay on top.

Sam

I'm with Pat. A slightly above average guy can hang near the top, if he works at it, listens very carefully, and gets a lot of practice. I know because I've done it on skis, and seen friends do it sailing. No amount of training and coaching will make a J.C., Randy, or Enrique etc. out of you if the talent isn't there. Competing against those guys can elevate your skill level tremendously. I bet most of you guys have a sense of that.

If we agree that there is no mystic or supernatural about how a sailboat functions, what the "big names" do must be quantifiable. As such, I dont see why it should be impossible to learn what they do as a skill.
Looking at it the opposite way, those 3% Pat mentions might be all in the mind of the challengers. "Knowing" they will never beat the large names, it is easy to despair or do something stupid. It dont have to be something large, just a lapse of concentration for some seconds can cost you 3% on the racecourse. Ask any top sailor where they lost a race, and they can tell you where, when and why 99% of the time.
In my opinion, thinking about the top sailors as owners of a special talent is just a way to explain your own performance without the discomfort of a honest self-examination and evaluation of your preparations.

Here is a picture from Athens 2004. Are the boats spread out due to the intrisic talent of the crews, or different skill levels, mental awareness/preparations and to some degree luck?



I dont say everybody will reach olympic class without effort, but given enough time, resources, motivation and normal health, I believe it is possible to be up there with the top.
Perhaps we will have Mitch Booth or Darren Bundock chime in with their opinion when the visit the forum next time.

There is a thing called talent. It is foolish to deny that.

After the theory of relativity is fully quantifiable, still not many hard working and motivated physists make it to the (creative) level of Einstein.

The way your mind is wired has alot to do with it. Different people find different things obvious.

I do agree with Rolf that alot can be overcome by persistant study but at one certain level the non-talented people will simply lack the flair and ease that talented people have when doing the same tasks. This will always translate in lacking an edge when both sailors work just as hard at getting better. There is simply no denying that.

Wouter

Interesting...you equate 'talent' to the same way I feel about 'luck' which is, in my opinion, a cover-up for the absence of either the correct answer or the correct question. However, I don't consider 'talent' as some foggy dark term used to describe away a lack of skill. I think 'talent' is a description of certain traits / strengths that people are wired for. I used to teach music and can certainly say, with no doubt, that there are certain people that have talent for playing a musical instrument. I've had students that have all the motivation, heart, and enthusiasm but lack the talent to play an instrument well even though they try for years. Conversly, I've had students with very little motivation and enthusiasm learn to play exceptionally well with the tiniest of effort. This is talent. I agree that a sailboat, car, bicycle, etc. are just mechanical contraptions that are limited to very specific behaviors and calculations - but to drive something hard and extract full potential from one of these requires a great deal of human interpretation and anticipation through sensational feedback. This is extremely similar to the talent required for creating great music through a calculatable mechanical musical contraption like a saxaphone or piano. Afterall, even though we can quantify what John Coltrane has done with a tenor saxaphone by writing it on paper, it doesn't mean any given person can learn to recreate it. On the other hand, you may have the talent to pull it off if you learn the skills required.

From Scoob


Right, but how did she manage three incredibly precise laps within split seconds of each other when the competition, many of which have more experience and training racing cars, had the same training opportunities for the track and the car? Are you saying that you think that any given person can give the identical performance with the same amount of training?

I think I read this from Bob Curry here on the forums. He lives by the five Ps rules. Proper Planning Prevents Poor Performance.

I think that can be applied to what you have said Rolf. I totally agree with your words. Everything is reachable, it is just a matter of working hard to get there.

Luck = Timing + Preparation

This is a great discussion!!