very well put!!! +1

Excellent.

Last, but not least is the element of an extremely pronounced and strong motivation & hunger that makes one succeed (in addition to talent & hard work).

Eric put it very well, and Pat's example of Juani is perfect. I also liked Jake's analogy with music, and Catwoman's with fine arts. Reminds me of my experiences in art school. I took portrait sculpture. I thought that since we were all looking at the same person, everyone's work would resemble the model. There were only two out of twenty that captured a likeness. What a thrill to dicover I had a talent! I love music, but share Rolf's "talent". A few years later, I was a teaching assistant in that class. I can convey the process, and the skills to any interested person, but I can't share my talent in a way that is tangable enough to give it to others. I bet a lot of you are "talented" sailors, you just don't have the same degree of talent some of the stars do. I've never seen most of you, but we may know some people in common, like Rick Bliss, John Smith, and Chris Titcomb. I don't know where they'd rank in the national scene, but I'd guess they'd all do pretty well. John is a friend of mine, and I've crewed with him, and sailed next to him. Watching him fly around wether on an H16 or N20 is a joy. It's like the boat is an extension of him. That's a groove I'd strive for even if I never make it onto the race course. I suspect I'd get there faster by following you guys around the cans a few hundred times! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It seems like 98% agree that it is indeed talent that decides the results on the top level. I am a bit surprised that so many choose to belive this, but it surely explains why media and reports/posts refers to talent when writing about events/results. I suppose my original question is answered <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I still believe that you dont need a special talent to succeed at the highest level of our sport, but perhaps I am a special case (like the 2% others). What if the difference between the top and the rest is just this "nothing is impossible" mindset? (and I am not saying that I am a top sailor here, which I am not, or dedicated to becoming one. Just speculating..)

"In any field of endeavour, talent alone is not enough to win if it is not backed up with perseverance. The world is full of talented failures." - Cornelius Shields on sailing.

In addition to training & skill on the water, as I recall many of the top teams are very good sailmakers or/and their crews are, and are Masters of sail shape (study/practice the science/art of sail shape for any wind or sea state), obvious a long learning curve. ie Ashby, Smythe, Glaser, Curry, Elvstrom...

Here's how it all boils down for me:

When I win, it's due to unmitigated raw talent, meticulous preparation, and finely tuned skills. Unbeatable.

When you win, it's due to unbelievably good luck, something bad happening to me (like falling off the boat), or the most outrageous gift rating that could ever be assigned to a boat. Unbeatable.

So simple, what's all the debate about?

EXACTLY!

My point was that Luck and Talent are both useless concepts . If you really think yourself unlucky or untalented, what can you do about that? Go live in a cave and eat worms, I guess.

Risk can be evaluated and mitigated. Skills can be improved. Luck is to Risk as Talent is to Skill. That's not to say that luck and talent aren't real, only that they aren't profitable ways of looking at the world.

There are many parts to sailing, some quite complex, that come into play making a good or great sailor. As a child prodigy, playing an instrument, there are fewer variables involved, IMHO. Sailboat racing is not so much who is the best at any given time or race but more who makes the least amount of mistakes. The thing involved that contribute to making fewer mistakes are:

Tactics
How to play your competitor tactically is knowledge best gained during competition. It is hard to pretend to be in a tactical situation if you are not competing. Also every time you are racing but not with “your pals” you will have to be on your toes as to what others (strangers) may try to do to you. This is where National and World competition attendance really pays off. You will come back with tricks that locals do not know.

Rules
Knowing how to use all the rules to your advantage. This may be more prevalent in monohulls but should not be ignored here. There are people that go around the course and know where they will get advantage on the nearest 5 or so boats so they can take advantage of the rules. There are many rules to know and interpretations of them. If you are comfortable with your knowledge you will be ready at the next situation.

Boat Speed
Think about the last time you sailed next one of the best sailors in the world. That is a great opportunity to get information about how they sail. Presuming that you are not a hack, you will find that their boat speed is not Ferrari-like. They do not walk away from you they creep away from you. Every time you stall the boat they do not. Each puff they get just a bit higher from it.

I think that pure boat speed is a combination of on-the-water time and messing around with the boat and tuning. This may be the one thing, in sailing, that can be seen in a prodigal son (or daughter). There could be a feel that is just there for some.

Knowing the conditions
The conditions are not just taken for granted by the best sailors who show up to an out of the area regatta. I have talked to a lot of the top sailors (out of their area) before a regatta starts and most of them already know the lay of the land. Whether they got it from local sailors or from tide charts, they know.

Luck
I have heard many times “I’d rather be lucky than good”. This usually refers to the fact that they had a good regatta. They may have gotten a lucky break or two, but without the rest of the knowledge and skill they probably would not be where they are.

This is not a complete list. I was coming up with some more while I was writing but I had to leave it at this. Sailing is a game that we sail miles and win, sometimes, by inches.

“He who makes the least mistakes wins!”

Later,
Dan

Rhino,

Sorry, but the use of the work risk http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/risk in this case still bothers me. I can see how risk can be controlled Ie. The more you are willing to loose the bigger the risk you will be willing to take. Which directly influances how much you might gain or loose. The might is the luck (gain = good, loose = bad) taking all other conditions, skills and talents into account.

Skill(s) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/skill can be sharpened, and build on talent(s) that as mentioned before is/are innate http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/talent

Luck is the tough part to get past. In my mind, luck or God's will or what ever you want to call it does play into the outcome of any event.

If I decide to get up and walk away from my current job to change carreers, all of the above will come into play. First, my skill (sharppend talents) in deceiding what would be the best course for stability vs high income vs most stimilulating. If I choose to do something that I know I am not (yet) great at, my risks are much higher than if I choose to just change the area of IT that I am in.

Top end sailors probably took a lot of risks and polished their skills to get where they are. If I did not have 5 other mouths to feed, I would probably be more willing to take the risks to get where I current think I want to be. As the children grow up and move out, the less risk is involved.

Sam

That dictionary has a narrower definition of risk than what I'm using. You may find the wiki page on risk wiki page on risk more helpful.

In racing it is valid to talk about negative risk (i.e favorable outcome). Maybe it's easier to think of the probability distribution of potential outcomes, where the outcome is measured in time relative to another boat.

Not that I've ever heard of someone imagining a complete probability curve, but you might think someting like "if I go left when the rest of the fleet goes right there's a high chance of slightly unfavorable outcome vs. low chance of highly favorable outcome, the mean result is probably slightly negative".

And then if you're towards the back of the pack and you've got a low throwout you might decide going left is worth it because you don't have much to lose. And if you end up losing by it, you can say "Well, I took a calculated risk that didn't pan out" instead of whining and saying "I was unlucky".

Thats what happens for me too! Wow - I thought I was the only one.

Tiger Mike

people that win alot have a talent for getting first place, and they have the ability to concentrate as much as it takes.

if you have a race with many talented and well praticed sailors, the power of the mind can become the deciding factor.

In order to be a winner you need a combination of many things, ("and" and not "or")
To make all the things affective, it helps if you have a competitive character ,
Now double that by 2
There are 2 sailors on the boat.
You can never depend on luck, all though it can determine every thing in a very annoying/pleasing way.
How ever, most of the time:
"Luck Favors the Prepared Mind" Louis Pasteur

That's a no brainer. Sailboat racing is such a multi-tasking sport that while you may lack "talent" in one aspect, you can make up for it by excelling in the overall package and that means proper preparation to prevent poor performance (the 5 P's). Cut to the chase - those who spend more quality time on the water will win more races. Quality time is practice based upon set goals each time you are on the water. I really enjoy training on my A-cat. I look forward to planning each session on the water and then reviewing at the end of the day what I have learned whether I am sailing by myself (which is 99% of the time) or having the luxury of a fast training partner. Training never seems old, it is always fun (sometimes more fun than the racing).

That is one great advantage to sailing an A-class. You can spend a lot of time on the water and that can make you a really good sailor in anything you sail. Ha, got my "another reason to own an A-cat" blurb in!

Bob Hodges
A-Class USA 230

Yes this is a rick, but not much of one, same thing as me going to work for Intel instead staying where I am at verses starting a new career in say civil engineering.

Now, take the guy in 3rd place out of say a pack of 15, he makes a decision to go a different route for some reason. That is a much larger risk (way more to loose than gain). Yes, luck might play into that result also. Maybe he saw something nobody else did?. Now lets say that he stays the course and a strange puff comes along right up his alley way so to speak and puts him in 1st place and he wins, luck, talent or skill??????? We have all seen stranger things happen.

Sam

Actually the (mainly french) ocean racing community did not regard Ellen very highly as a sailor (not as a person).
I for one do not think of her as someone with exceptional sailing "talent".

She gained a lot of experience in a short time because she convinced people of her potential,
this got her funds to pay for crew positions with some successful french skippers/teams which in turn snowballed to bigger things.
(Sailing with the french top guys looks good on your resume).

Maybe she, together with Steve Fossett, shows that with loads of training, experience, and a strong mind people can become a top sailors.

In Steve's case it didn't hurt to have a big pile of money. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />