Ive noticed some folks trap out with spin up during bouy racing.

What does the rest of the F16 class do around the world? I have learned with the little racing I have done, that trapping out with spin up is just a big pain in the butt for bouy racing. Sometimes the course is to short to go through the trouble.

Also while chatting with Bob Cury, he said if you trap out you have to heat up too much in order to build aparent wind making you sail a higher course. Makes total sense to me.

What do you all think, do or practice?

The simple answer is ;

"Dependents on the conditions and the course."

Didn't we cover this about 4 weeks ago already ?

Wouter

Without writing a huge reply can you elaborate. I think that quote can be applied to a lot of sailing questions.

Maybe we did, I dont know. That is why I am asking TODAY.

That the question is raised again, means people still are concerned about it. This is a good thing! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Bob was pretty forceful in his statement to me that bouy racing is about sailing the shortest distance. For that, you don't need to be on the wire. Others may disagree, but his record speaks for itself.

Robi, what you are asking is the very essence of downwind speed itself. Only the Master knows for sure, which will be faster in a given wind condition and on a given course. We mortals can first start with the two extremes: light air (5kts) and heavy air (20 kts). Obviously in light air you cannot trap, so you sit way inboard and try to get the hull up to minimize drag. Heat it up, lift the hull, slowly bear away while trying to keep it up, rinse and repeat until it's time to gybe. In heavy air you must trap or swim, but you will still want the hull up for less drag, as long as it won't lead to swimming.

So the "change over" point is the great unknown and that is where experience and skill come into play. If we go half way between 5 and 20, that is 12.5 knots of wind. So about there you will need to chose one. Having the experience to know which one to choose is what makes fast guys fast. But the wind is never that steady. What is fast right now might not be fast when a puff hits or when you sail into a hole. You have to shift gears a lot when it's gusty and the fast guys are the ones who are very good at shifting gears quickly.

I have crawled up the mountain to ask the Master and he told me this: "Speed is the only thing that matters, so make it go as fast as you can, as long as you can."

And remember, gaining speed will move the apparant wind forward, thus allowing you to go deeper, and at greater speed, until it bleeds off and you have to heat it up again.

Some like it hot, others like to go deep. In medium conditions it's always tough to make that choice, so I follow the fast guys... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Personally, I do not trap with spin when buoy racing. Realize that I sail on a relatively small lake with short courses usually. I do use the foot straps on the tramp and "droop" hike at the rear beam (a la Kilkenny).

I think it all depends on the distance of the leg, the number of anticipated gybes, exact conditions - but as a general rule, I do not like to waste the time.

Which leads to another question. How many tacks and jibes are common in F-16 buoy racing?

From the Tornado I am used to three laps with a race time of about 1 hour for the fastest teams. Quite often, it pays to 'bang the corner' and just do one or two tacks upwind and perhaps some more gybes to play gusts and headers downwind. What will it be like at Zandvoort?

Based on the last two UK Nationals, I'd say that because a Stealth/F16 tacks so easily and quickly, we don't tend to 'bang the corners'. It was especially noticeable at Mumbles this year that people were prepared to tack to cover/break cover/use the shifts etc. and upwind on a 50 minute race you might easily put in 4 or 5 tacks, downwind I reckon most people went for 3-4 gybes unless they were duelling (as I was on more than 1 occasion) and you might put in up to 7 or 8!

Since getting the Stealth I've learned to be more like the Assy skiffs and dinghies and keep well under and inside the laylines to a mark and it's paying dividends! Tacking just a few yards for clear air no longer holds any fear for me as the boat spins so quickly and accelerates so easily. You're gonna love it Rolf! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am definately going to like that. But I suppose I better get to work on my cardiovascular system <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The Tornado is a beast to tack (deep hulls, short centerboards), so it is very 'expensive' when racing. Hearing that the F-16s are more nimble is a good thing. More tactics and boathandling is good.

To get back to Robis question. On the T we have a rough guide for when to move out and aft. If the boat feels tippy and hard to control, we move out and aft until it is under control again. I suppose there are some identical guidelines for the F-16s, except that you have another variable to adjust for in partially raised daggerboards.

Hey Team !

I've raced the F16 a fair amount and have developed a few convictions ( and a littany of opinions), about what's fast... Based on my objective evidence (primarily direct observation) - if you're trapping upwind, you're fastest (VMG here...), when you trap downwind. I've not practiced this convicion enough and always to my detriment...

Paul

I'm convinced that wiring downwind is faster once you get to the "critical" wind speed. This was about F3 on my Inter 17 and I'm assuming (for now) it will be lower on the 16 as it's lighter. BUT when it gets real windy then it's safer to not wire as it is just too wild. The "too wild" point will no dubt go up the wind speed as I get to grips with the 16.

First sail was in about a F3 last weekend and wiring was 100% (IMO of course) quicker then not wiring - you just get heated up so much more and so the apparent wind goes forward and so you bear off more(it is however harder work!). Sailing the 17 in a top F4 I could sail DEEPER flying a hull on the wire, than I could hitting on the side flying a hull as there was more speed, this moved the apparent wind forward (so I had to sheet in harder) and then you go deeper - This may sound mad, but it works !

There comes a point (as I said above) where it's just too wind to be out on the wire.

The size of the course also matters as does the number of boats around you (and so the probabily of needing a quick gybe to get out or trouble).

It's always a trade off between VMG and manoverability (and ability to react to shifts), it is also usefull to be able to gybe back into gusts quickly - thus sometimes it pays NOT to wire so you can ride a narrow wind band down hill.

It's all a trade off really.

I'll be wiring "hungry monster" downhill most of the time.

Well that's clearly an over simplification, as I can assure you that sticking the thing dead down wind is *not* the fastest way to the mark even though it is the shortest route.

Similarly, if you sail at 90 degrees to the wind, you'll never get to the downwind mark. Somewhere in between is the fastest angle, and that's where the challenge lies.

I think it really depends on the conditions, and not just the wind strength, but also the size of gusts and the size of waves. Given how Aaron sails when he's kicking us all, I'm confident that there comes a point where in a steady wind trapezing is faster.

If the wind is gusting from non-enough to trapeze to too much to trapeze, you'll do better to sit in: being sat in in the gusts doesn't do much harm, as you just go deeper, but being trapped in the lulls does, because the boat gets horribly out of trim.

Paul

True enough! As I recall, keeping 90 degrees apparent wind was an essential part of the bargain. Guess I should have mentioned that small detail earlier. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Ah, OK <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I definitely think it pays to go a bit hotter than 90 degrees apparent wind. I tend to go for about 70.

I was quite surprised to discover that it pays even in very light wind. At one of the races at Grafham the wind dropped right off and I was resisting the temptation to go high. When I realised the F18s were getting past me, I started sailing the same angles as them. The angles felt really high, but I was now beating them downwind.

Paul

I've been in situations where it payed to do either of these opposing things, it came down to specifics to determine which was best. For me control is most often the deciding factor. Most often I hike out as Paul does. I don't have toestraps yet, but I really do want them as in certain short waves I want to trap as well to prevent the bows from burying to much. If I sit in then, I find that the boat both stops and wants to capsize. With one on the wire it tends do punch throught the next wave and not heel as much.

I've sailed through the fleet of F18's at my club both when trapezing and when not trapezing in very similar conditions. I couldn't tell you why. I just did what felt fast at the time. I always decide at the moment what is best.

Wouter

Can anyone share any suggestions/pointers on trapping while flying the spin solo?

One thing I had to figure out on my own is its necessary to install a rear block on my F18 for the spin sheet to run through near the base of the maisheet, in order to use the spin sheet for stability and balance. However, doing this increases the drag on the sheet making it hard to release as quickly as I want.

Do you use footstraps too?

How hard is it to maintain this position? I have been a bit leary of doing it much solo without other boats around. Are you able to keep trapping successfully in moderate to higher winds with the spin out? It seems like it would be hard to maintain without footstraps if you had to quickly bear off or dump the spin sheet to keep from flipping.

Not quite F16 but it might be a help - as a rough rule of thumb, on the Tiger when we are 2 stringing up wind, we put the crew on the wire downwind. 1 on the wire upwind has the crew on the windward deck off breeze and on the tramp up wind = crew to leeward with the spi.

Note: This is *very* rough. You need to take into account the sea conditions, wind, other boats and where the next mark is.

Tiger Mike

The problem I have is bearing off too much, having the boat slow down and then me shuffling inelegantly forwards to avoid losing grip/balance. Doesn't lead to capsize, but it is annoying.

I'm going to be putting footstraps on this weekend, and I'm also considering some pro grip. This made a world of difference when we put it on the Tiger.

Paul

I have the block in the rear crossbeam. I have the foot straps (I don't see how its possible without them).

For me its a slow process getting out on the wire with the spinaker up. It makes it a lot easier when the boat is powered up. But for me, going out without moving the tiller is hard, I seem to always bear away when going out on the wire. ALWAYS. I have been concentrating on NOT doing that lately. That is why I am back at baby stepping on the boat.

I forgot to mention at the beginning of my thread. This was mostly aimed at F16 UNI-RIG sailing (which means solo).

I find the following technique allows me to trap without much effort. For this example I'll assume a starboard tack downwind under spi uni (solo).

Once on the proper starboard heading (assuming you just jibed or rounded "A"), I hook up with my trapeze. I situate myself near the rear beam with my butt hanging over the hull--ie I'm suspended by the trap' line. Right leg is extended with foot against the (starboard) stay plate. Left leg is collapsed with my knee near my chest, foot on the hull.

From this position I can re-position my weight forward or aft.... or .... extend my left leg and voila' I'm full trapped.