There is alot to be said about Class racing as long as the numbers are large enough that there is a good mix of ability and crew wieghts, otherwise you'll just find a pecking order occurs in every race. That is good for the people who aren't winning as they'll have a target to work towards. However, in mixed Class racing the competitors should be sailing Cats which are best suited to their size/wieght ,ability and budget. At the Club where I sail we have Cats ranging across the whole spectrum from Dart 18's to Tornado's. I have fortunately had the chance to race most of them. I'm not the tallest or heaviest of people so I have found the Cats I get the most enjoyment out of are either the F16 or 'A' Class. IMO these two Cats are the dogs bits and if it wasn't for the fact that sailors at our Club weren't prepared to go down the one Class route I would probably have never expierenced the buzz of sailing these types of Cats. So I think there is a place for handicap racing at Club level where you can experiment and train and then take these skills to your own Open events where you sail with your fleet. In summary if we had been like sheep and all bought F18's the racing would have poorer for the majority for the benefit of the minority. Not forgetting that variety is the spice of life (in certain circumstances and your wife doesn't find out)

tikipete...you're a trouble-maker!

...so I'd buy you a beer anytime. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

To clarify, I've asked a few things here, but in short, I've asked for "first cat" recommendations, about tilt trailers, and finally about the integrity of used F18's. All hell breaking loose in such online discussions is perfectly normal, although it can mitigate the overall usefulness of a thread with all the subplots that tend to develop. If forum software could ever come up with a good automated indexing system, that would return a lot of value from these fragmented discussions.

Regarding the F18...our thinking is along these lines: we'll want something high-performance ultimately so why not start out with that sort of boat and the F18 fits that, it's becoming more popular by the day, good level of equivalent performance across the various makes, growing availability of good used boats, good resale potential, no need for tilt trailer. Although racing isn't a primary driver for us, Tiger seems to be a logical choice given it's class and one-deisgn race potential; however, they seem to be a bit more expensive on the used market, and whether or not this is a fair perception could be debated, but when talking new, the Capricorn and latest Nacra might be a hair quicker. For my wife and I, it would not matter for quite some time, if ever, as our technique would long remain the speed-limiting factor. Fact is, if it was fast and fun, we'd sail on a couple of old bathtubs strapped together on broom handles and powered by a comforter.

Until now, I'd hardly heard of the F16 let alone considered one, but since some good points have been made about this being a viable alternative to the F18, we'll definitely give this class a look. One obvious concern would be in racing, should we want to get actively involved would we be limited to open class events, or are there enough F16s in the US on a regional level to have class regattas? What about sea-worthiness in bigger water vs. an F18?

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

First, let me apologize for misspelling your name. By the time I noticed, it was too late to edit the error. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

As regards distance racing, I think most everyone will agree I-20 is the first and best choice. F18s have fuller bows and generally will handle bigger waves more easily than the F16s, or so I'm told. As an unapologetic fair weather sailor, I generally avoid high wind and big waves! I use plenty of adrenaline at work. My goal on the water is to destress. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

IMO, the strengths of the F16 are it's light weight, versatility for 1 or 2 up sailing and the performance of a stock spinnaker.

In the end though, I think it just comes down to personal taste. Some people like chocolate, others like vanilla.

Happy Holidays!

Let me apologize as well for continuing the spelling error.

I recall you two weigh 320 total? Not too heavy for a F16. Hear the Blade feels like an 18 or 20 ft'r upwind.

Pete, Good point about the distance racing. Lake Erie would be a blast!!!

In terms of numbers of boats and fleets.. I don't think that there is an f16 fleet anywhere in NA..How many f16s are there in NA? Anyone know? I heard numbers of 3-4 dozen..
Anyone know the f18 numbers? It must be several hundred if not over 1000 in NA, with fleets all over the place, and growing quickly. I think that is the achilles heal of f16...not enough boats out there.

Dunno! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> There is a fleet in Florida and I'm confident it will grow but the numbers are comparatively small.

What happened to the U.S. Formula 16 Class Association that was being formed? Shouldn't the Class Assn. have a list of all the known F16 owners in the U.S. and where they are?

The class has formed; has a constitution, officers and twenty or so paid up members.
http://www.f16.beasts.org/

Frapper(?) has a map of the U.S. boats. Seem to have misplaced the link.

Is that 20 paid members globally or just North America?

Hey now! They have a website

formula16classgroup

Round and round in circles we go.

Yes, F16s are not in the same league as F18 or A in terms of fleet size. For some people that is a critical factor. For others it is not.

For me, there's a whole bunch of more important factors that mean F18 or A is not an option for me at the moment (I used to sail F18, and enjoyed the quality and quantity of the racing). I hope that F16 fleets will grow, but even if they don't, I still won't go out and buy an A or F18, because they don't meet my needs in other respects.

So, lack of other boats may be a critical factor for you, but it's certainly not the "Achilles heel" of the class.

Paul

That should be http://www.formula16.org - the beasts.org address was a temporary address for when we were building the site although it does still work.

Paul

Good morning Ding! You're in your usual wry form.
http://www.frappr.com/formula16classgroup/map

I think the US association is the first to even have paying F16 members at all. For the last 5 years we'd run the F16 class as a free membership class with volunteers doing all the work. I'm still not paying any membership fees, although I do pay for the www.formula16.org and www.formula16.com URL's. Paul is supplying us with the best hosting site of any catamaran class (unlimited bandwidth and space). Robi provides free grafics support, Phill is our free-of-charge technical support desk. Seth Stern is our main (for the love of it) F16 event organisor in USA and I can continue with a score of other people ....

This is not a pay-to-play class, but truly an owners driven association of volunteers. Great fun. We even have a team of volunteers working on new developments. Some of us are working on sailand rig development, others on hull developments and yet others again on production improvements. All pretty much for the love of it and the kick of experiencing succes. We are not much a run of mill class, we are different in many aspects.

But to answer your question. There can only be paying members in the USA at this time as the rest of the F16 sailors in the worlds are still operating under the free-of-charge memberships. I don't whether there are 20 or not. I do know that significantly more F16's are being sailed in the USA then 20 so ...

Wouter

I'm sorry, was that out of line? Not sure where that number is coming from and I'm wondering if it should be in the same category as the factoid "An F16 goes upwind like an N20" and an "F16 is weight insensitive, with the right mast and cut of sails" .

It's one thing to be enthusiastic about your boat, but the story telling is getting out of hand.

US Sailors:
This sounds just like the F18HT marketing plan, First flood the internet forums. Then tell everyone about all the sailors that have or planning to purchase & the webpage.
How many years have we been listening to this?

Can anyone point out a regatta in North America, that five F16 sloops attended a regatta or F16s sailed as a uni?

Formula 18 Class is now the most active catamaran class in the World. Formula 18 North America F18s http://www.naf18.com/ I heard the membership was over 60, but that was a year or so ago.

Ted

He is isn't he ? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Our promotion volunteer.





All the sibling rivalry aside, the F18's are good dependable boats that will give you alot of enjoyment.

I won't really look too much at strict one-design status of a F18 (like the Tiger) too much. F18 is where the real racing is, it isn't in any of the OD F18 spin-offs. Also you'll want the more open class rules that the F18 has over figuring out what a manufacturer will allow for the next season.





Dependents a little bit on where you are. For example, the F16 and F18 fleets are regatta's in Florida are of the same size. In the great lakes area the F16 is very much an open class boat (at this time).

Sea-worthiness is not a factor to worry about when comparing F16's to F18's. Many non-F16 sailors can be found to claim otherwise, but truly and honestly that is just prejudice. This is not denying any differences between the two, afterall the two boats are different designs, but an F16 will handle big water just as well as an F18.


If you ask me then the real choice, if it comes down between F18 and F16, should be decided on what are going to do with your new boat. If you going for mostly doublehanded sailing with a serious schedule of class racing then F18 will be your ticket. Plain and simple.

However, if you mostly want to do fast reacreational sailing, both doublehanded or singlehanded, with now and then a larger regatta in either mode then F16 will be your ticket.

For recreational sailing fleet numbers don't really count. Also it must not be forgotten that F16's and F18's are very comparable in the way they are fitted out and overall performance. The last will mean you can just share a start with F18's and race them first-in-wins. In the way of speed experience and sailng skills both boats will be very much the same. The F16's have as added benefit that they are much lighter and allow you to sail and race singlehanded really well. If for some reason your wife can't join you then that is not problem at all. One person can unload and rig the F16 without outside help and also sail them, incl spinnaker. It is this aspect that have seen a good number of crews decide for the F16 even if no other F16's were around them. It is also my own main reason to sail and F16. I find that I do the most sailing ever with the F16 as there is no reason not to go sailing when I want to. Crews can show up or leave at the last moments and I can switch between both roles within the time span to hoist or lower my jib sail.

It is therefor my personal opinion that F16's are very attractive for crews that mostly do recreational sailing with a high performance intent. In that role I really do believe the F16's to be better then F18's simply because of the ease to switch from 1-up to 2-up sailing while not sacrifizing any performance or safety.

In some area's F16 racing is approaching a viable class racing structure but as any new class we need to grow into this role progressively during the future. At one time the F18's started with only a handful of boats in Northern France. Over the span of years it grew to the large class it is now. It is illogical for the F16 class to grow in any other way. And F16 grow is steady and secure,

Good luck with your choice

Wouter

I don't think you were out of line! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> You do have a wry sense of humor though! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

For the record, I will make only two claims: 1) I like this boat better than any other I've owned. 2) It is lighter than most boats, certainly lighter than any of my other boats.

On the east coast in 2006:

Tradewinds (6)
Gulfport Invitational (8)
JPOR (5)


and currently signed up for 2007 Tradewinds are 5 with an expected turnout of 9.