As you no doubt know, the number of catamaran racers in the US has been in decline for quite some time. Many folks have the feeling that there's not room for more than a couple of healthy classes. At best it seems to be a zero-sum game, where the success of one class can only come at the expense of another. And that's where the bickering starts, IMHO.

No boat ever beats another boat.
Skippers beat skippers.
I find it amusing when guys talk about what boat they beat across the line. Who was the driver?
Lets all assume the F16 is the best built, most technically advanced wonder machine on any planet.
Put a newbie on it and it won't beat anything.
The same is true for all boats.

It seems that there is the competive OD/Formula racing crowd and the go sailing at a competition crowd.
Both are fine and will never agree on what is best.
I like to see great skippers sail against each other on the same boat. Doesn't matter what it is.
We go to Canandaigua where the Sharks have an open event every year. Each year a good skipper wins.
John Perrin has been winning races on his Shark before most of us were born.
The problem is that the winner is usually determined by the wind conditions. The Shark has a window. The Tiger,16,I20, A etc.. also have their window.
I have a hard time with the top 5 finishers all being on differant boats and rarely being near each other on the course.
It takes away so much of what I believe racing should be. A good skipper still wins, but it's not the same.

As long as this is about bickering, we all do realize the Hobie 16 is the best, right? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'll throw in an: "Oh Dear Lord" for Jake

'cause he eats Kennel Ration!

duh!

As far as I'm concerned, the H16 is the daddy!

BUT, once you discover what a modern boat is like to sail, I'm afraid the H16 becomes a beach boat that you hire while on holiday. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Yes, it's got good class racing and some real good sailors, but if the weapon of choice had been a Shark or a Paper Tiger/Shearwater/Lynx or any of those 'state of the art' cats from the 60s and they'd grown instead of the H16 then we'd be having the conversation about one of them. That doesn't make any of them the best racing class though (or the best anything).

The best boat for any sailor is the boat that suits their lifestyle/pocket/need at the stage that they are at. For some that'll be an Aquacat or (God forbid) a Peanut (anyone remember them?). For others it'll be a H14 or 16 or 18. For many it's F18 or Tornado. I, and others, find the flexibility of F16 to be our preference. None of them can really be called the best boat though.

I don't mind rivalry or informed comment even on a bickering thread, but I find some of the comments to be verging on plain ignorant (and I'm not referring to you Pat over your tongue in cheek H16 comment). If a thread heads off into anarchy as this particular thread has the potential to do, no-one will win. It's just divisive, and with the post about declining catsailing in the US, that's the last thing any of you should want.

Rant over.

What you said... just an "also ran" with blinkered views.

Relax John, geeze you can be so superior sometimes.

Indeed. To say you need to a gorrilla to be on the front of an F18 is bs. Most certainly some physical strength and endurance is required and that is mainly a matter of sailing the boat a lot over a couple of months to develop the specific muscle set required to run the boats (ie hand strenth).

The combined crew weights of the F18 boats are generally getting lighter. Have you seen Glenn Ashby lately??? He is not a huge guy (although very strong). Heck - I have sailed races with a 45 kg 18yo girl on the front in 20 kts. We were a little lighter than I would have liked to be but sheesh it flew! (well ok - a lot lighter)

Tiger Mike

Wow - the most concise summary that I pretty much fully agree with! I **REALLY** dislike handicap racing however I think it will always be around.

Tiger Mike

Dingram,

I'm not being superior (I'm anything but!) and that was not my intention. If that's the way I came over - I'm sorry. I guess I just don't understand the entrenched attitudes that seem to keep cropping up on this forum........... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

It is used to expres the experience that the boat feels more smooth and controllable then an ordinary 16 footer. It is the result of the new hull shape and the improved rudder design and also a little of the sail controls.

Now back to some more bickering ! Yeahhh <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

Ohhh it is the team alright. At this level you simply can't buy a win. The very much mixed results at Area D proofs that, not a single brand dominated the top places.





Yeah we've been hearing that for years now as well. Think 2005 Bouy race series and the rerun this year in that same contest. The F16 Alter Cup qualifier Area D win in 2003 and a score of other races that were all 1-time lucky shots.

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />"bishop to D4, your next move Ding ? " <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

It is a US thing.

Hell, I threw out my back this season from helping to step all those F18 masts !

Seriously, on the beach there isn't that much bickering between makes at all. Were I sail nearly all races are open class anyway. If you sail well on any boat then you get congratulated by all.

Hell, the Dutch F16 class is headed by a guy who races and owns both an A-cat and F16.

Persoanally I enjoy being on the start of the F18's, A's and others.

But all "fun" aside I think when all US sailors hook up at some event that this is not much different. Last time I went over to the USA for a regatta I had a great time and everybody was friendly. The bickering on this forum is just that; "bickering on a forum"

Wouter

Ill stick with my beloved mosquito. Soon to have a kite.
But if people offer Ill take a ride on an f18

Where do you sail?

Now that all hell has broke loose thanks to Tiki P, I would like to wish all Cat sailors everywhere and whatever they ride on a very Happy Christmas and enjoyable New Year. My little boy has just advised me that Santa Claus has ditched Rudolph to sail solo on a F16, Rudolph is pretty pissed off so he and Blitzen are going to team up on a Tornado. Vixen and Donder will carry on campaigning the Tiger. Prancer just spent his Christmas bonus on a new 'A' Cat. Dancer doesn't sail much but wants to accumulate over 10k posts during the next season and poor old Dasher doesn't give a F**k.

Hey,

No reindeer sails a Hobie 16 ?

How can that be ?!??!!

Wouter

Only 4592 to Wouter <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

John, I'm just messing with you... I never took this thread that seriously. If the Hobie edict didn't hurt us, a little [censored] fight between friends isn't even going to be a blip on the radar.

I do enjoy yanking Wouter's chain though.

I guess it's a compliment to have you use the F18 and N20 as your yardstick, but the sad news is you'll always come up short. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />