If we can design a light easy to homebuild boat I'll soon add stays and trap to keep them happy. It would be ideal to get a basic boat that could be developed with the kids as they get older they just slide onto one of those ever so cool F14 to F16 etc

My 2 cents worth is that TWO youth boats are needed. 10 feet and 14 feet.
Got to get these guys when they are 6 years old! 14 footer needs to end up in Olympics so there is a REAL desire to learn and win.
In this country it goes Opti, Star, Laser, Olympics.
12 footer is neither here nor there.
The PT has been a great non trap, one sail, hi tech boat for 30 years. This boat weighs 53 kilos and a modern boat on this theme must be a great idea.
BTW
Windrush 14 was created as a roof top boat. That is why it has the folding hulls. This is a credible 80s 14 footer with a top speed tested at over 18 knotts and easily competitive with a Hobie 14.
I think that the key to a roof topper is the set up ON THE ROOF. If you can create a boat that sits with its beach trolly on the roof you have something that will get to the water without fuss. A light boat and leaving it to the sailor to sort out roofing won't do it.

Hi All

I disagree, shrouds and trap wires won't complicate the boat. The smallest boats around have shrouds and not too much further up the scale they have trap wires, if they don't want to trap for the first few months they don't have to, but option for them should there.

This is my concern, you design a boat that is ideal for a young inexperienced, say 12 year old, without something of a bit of challenge later (e.g once they start racing each other) they will soon get bored with them, and its back to the monos for a bit of trapeze and later again the spinnaker.

Will it become an F12, box rule type cat, or has it been tagged F12 for this discussion?

I know we are adults thinking/talking about this, and the kids, as has been said, should have some input.

I would probably have the following written down prior to designing my own. Cat Rigged (to sail alone or with friend or sibling) optional jib (to sail with friend or sibling)
single trapeze (perhaps introduced after intial training with boat) single pivoting centreboard? Stayed rig.

Again please take this an opinion, not trying to tell anyone how to do anything. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Regards

Pat,
I totally agree with your posts on this thread. It is not about the boat.

Furthermore, I have always said that if you want your kids to get involved in sailing, you get them into a yacht club program in the monohulls -- Optis, 420's, Lasers, etc. A club that has club fleets, so you don't have to buy them a boat unless you go on the racing circuit.

Personally, I am totally incapable of understanding why it makes a difference to you guys whether a kid is sailing on one hull or two. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Sailing comes first. Racing comes second. Ultimate choice of boat should be a distant third.

It is like exposing your child to various aspects of art or dance or music. Just because you prefer to play the guitar doesn't mean your kid has to play guitar -- he might prefer the tuba. You don't buy an instrument for him until you know what he enjoys.

The point is that you should expose your children to sailing -- on various types of boats -- and just hope that they will like to sail, period. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Some posters have mentioned the very real desire to have a trapeze. However, we must be really careful not to keep adding stuff as that will quickly make the boat both heavier and more complex and both of those make it more expensive as well.

We must also look at the power the rig is developping. At this time it is not really enough to pull a 50 kg sailor on the wire. We can make the rig bigger but then we quickly have to add both mainsheet purchase and stays. Both of which really do increase the loading on the component requiring them to become stronger. And then finally we end up with a 100 kg Hobie wave or Mystere 4.3 and that is neither car-toppable or easy to rig. At this time I'm sorry to say that we must make hard choices in order to get to our goal which many see to be, really simple, really light and really inexpensive but fast and fun to sail. The trapeze is difficult to justify on those grounds.

Hell, at this stage we should rather be taking away then add to the boat.

Wouter

picture says more then words.



It is a simple pop in which the mast is placed. I know it looks really fragile and stuff but it really isn't. That is as long as we keep the rig relatively small. 6 sq. mtr should be fine as that is exactly what this Standard landyacht of the picture is using. These cars are 2.6 wide and are pulling on one wheel by the rig. This all comes pretty close to what we are intending to do with the F12 in the way of loading and stresses.

http://www.char-a-voile.com/franc2/seagull.html




I'm not really sure what you trying to say here. I don't think the F12 is intended to have "side" beams. Additionally round alu tubing is very easy to get and inexpensive the world over. Two things I'm directly after for this design.





I would really love this boat to have pivoting daggerboards to optimize its upwind potential. But the real race will be to get down to 50 kg ready to sail and pivoting boards will add about 5 to 6 kg to the boat. That is a quick and easy safe if we go for skegs. Also the need for kids to sail in really shallow water was reiterated by Phill and I think he is right there. Skegs are much better here and it really does simplify things both in construction and cost. Finally I thought lets try to make it work with skegs, we can always add the daggerboards later is so required, for the moment we can also use oversized rudders and get some pointing performance out of them like the Supercats are doing. It is worth a try to start out with skegs. At least that is my opinion.





My choice would be to make the platform with two rudders and a crossbar + a single tiller extension. Just as a normal catamaran. In effect make it look as much as a normal catamaran, as Taipanmatt said. Additionally I want the large rudder area to help boost pointing. This is a real possibility as the rig will indeed bend far backwards when sheeted tight. Making the centre-of-effort point lay close to the rudders.

I'm still undecided where the crossbar will be.




Yes, class 5 sails are rather expensive but that is because those are quotes of competitive sails in a class that is rather popular on French beaches. The design of the sail however is not that difficult at all nor is making it. Because of the very large mast bend the whole design of the mainsail revolved around having the right luff curve. This is actually very large and so such sails can be copied relatively easily if you know what to look for. I ones brought my landyacht sail to a sailmaker and he said he would copy it for maybe 150 bucks (excl. new battens). However I would certain try making such a copy myself. There really isn't that much too it. And with the sleeved design it is also relatively easy to adjust the luff curve at a later time.

I don't think the mainsail is a realy problem either construction wise or money wise. Once a good cut has been found then it is just copying this design by some Hong Kong sweat shop.

Wouter

I'm a northerner as well, I'm at the latitude of Sasketewan. But i'm doing this in the winter months. And some landyachting is weather permits. Can't you do that ? Or ice-yachting ?

Wouter

How many mono's for kids are trapeze boats ?

And the ones that are (29-er, laser-2 etc) how expensive are they. Are any of these rotomoulded ?

So why are we trying to include these things when the mono's aren't ?

Hell the optimist, extremely popular with parents and kids, has a very outdated rig and the bloody things cost 3000 Euro's or more in retail. Same for the Splashes and such boats. A Laser-1 costs between 3500 and 4500 Euro's in retail.

As such I would claim that a 3000 US$ F12 without a trapeze but with a much more modern rig and speed approaching the H16 will be excellent challenger to the other kids boats.

Wouter

In my view the F12 will be a true formula class. I having nothing but disrespect for classes that call pure one-design boats by a formula name.

Hell, if it were up to me I would make the design public domain as well, so everybody (builder) can build it.

I feel that we must have some decentralized development to optimize the design. The true trick will be to write the formula class rules, but I have a concept of that.

Wouter

Theres a few over here, available as home builds or Fibreglass. 125 dinghy is one and what I started on, The Flying Ant, Arafura Cadets are cats with a trapeze, Impara Cadet is a cat with a trapeze, Cherubs and 420. I will say the Cherub has become more a boat for a couple of young adults so probably don't count that one. But here in the Western Region of Victoria, we almost all had 125's as our junior boats (trapeze and spinnaker) And another club in the Region has just put the next generation through with Flying Ants (trapeze and spinnaker)with the main senior boat at their club being the Int.Fireball. There are also a lot without.

Perhaps if we knew what age group we are talking about, 10-14, 12-16 or 12-18. I can only assume from the design brief or ideas that its at the younger group, say 10-14?

Regards

My personal goal is not really an age group, but a target group of a certain weight and attitude.

In my view the F12 should cater for sailor in the weight range of 40 kg to 70 kg and of the attitude that it must be really inexpensive and easy to operate while still being a thrill to sail.

This certain will included relatively young person, but also women and light males.

Personally I would love to sail one of these things myself at 85 kg. I picture it as a boat that can used to sail for an hour or so after work. Overhere it has been tried to do that with lasers but these tend to have problems getting through the surf. The F12 will not have that problem.

Also for these short sails, quick rigging and unrigging will be paramount.

The boat will probably not lift a hull with me on it, but it could still be lots of fun to sail it as an adult. Not to mention the abdominal workout through hiking.

So no I don't think it is designed for a specific age group.

Even more so the class could regulate three sub classes based on weight so that even full grown adults could have fun racing their peers. Sort of like Class 1 = up to 50 kg, class 2 = 50-70 kg, class 3 = above 70 kg.

Sure the class 5 will be slower then the classes 1 and 2 but that won't matter as all the sailors in class 3 will be slower by the same amount and so racing will be fair again.

Additionally the unstayed mast design will allow different mast tips of varying stiffness to be used. So the heavier classes can use stiffer mast tips keeping more draft in the top of the sail.

The current mast design is such that each sailor can make his own tip from simple round alu tubing from you local hardware store.


Nor do I think this boat should have a jib or spinnaker. If a sailor wants that then the F14 or F16 should be looked at. I think we must look at this F12 as how the go-carts relate to the true racing cars like Nascar and F1. It emulated enough of the experience to be regarded as car racing but it is so much simpler that it is within reach or ordinary people.

Wouter

I love the idea of a 12ft children’s cat, this is something I have been thinking of myself. Would not the cheapest lightest rig be a windsurfing rig. Instead of skegs or dagger boards perhaps a hull shape similar to the Gcat would be more practical, I feel that that hull shape would work even better on an F12 than an F16 (on which it seems to work quite well).

I have a test crew ready and waiting as I have 9, 7 and 5 year old children (my 7 month daughter is a bit young) that I am currently introducing to an optimist.

I think the main advantage of a cat over a mono for children is stability not speed, that said it would still be pretty quick.

As per Wouters request, here is the michlet drag prediction of a 12ft cat carrying 120kg (Hull2 purple), in order to give it a sense of scale I have compared it with a laser at the same weight (Hull1 red).



I am happy to participate in an open source design.

Gareth
www.fourhulls.com

F18 at 300kg added to the plot (Hull3 blue)


Gareth
www.fourhulls.com

I agree with Mary and Pat here too. The best way to get kids into sailing is give them access to boats that their parents don't have to buy. There is already a pretty decent network of optis and lasers that include programs and people to train the kids the basics of sailing. We're talking here about doing what we multihullers typically do in trying to buck the system and do our own thing - which is why we still have some of the reputation we do.

This is a lot like a musical instrument rental program if your kid wants to join the band. Most places offer it as a way for parents to get the kids into it cheaply while the kids sort out whether or not it's a hobby that will stick.

So you want kids sailing but you want them sailing multihulls? IMHO, the best thing you can do is to get the kids to the club into the youth program and while they're racing go racing in your multihull. It won't take them long (the entire fleet actually) to recognize the speed of the catamaran and they'll surely recognize it as a pinnacle of achievement to be able to race on those.

So the keys as I see them are: Get yourselves and our kids into Sailing Clubs and their youth programs and get multihulls out at the same clubs participating and contributing.

A certain attitude... An editorial by Ed Muns last year described cat sailing youth as those under 40 years of age.

A friend's father, who weighs 125 pounds, and still enjoys sailing recently bought a Bravo, but at 175 pounds it requires a trailer for transport and takes up considerable real estate in his garage.

Robi, great graphics!!

Regarding beam landing, what kind of test rigs need to be built?

Exactly. Get the kids on the water, on anything, then teach them to take the helm and set the sails, and they'll be hooked (just like we all were).

I sail because I spent my HS years living on a small lake and we had a Sunfish. I lived on that boat...my folks usually had to blow a horn to tell me it was time to come in for dinner. Everyone knows the Sunfish isn't a fast, exciting boat, but I had a blast sailing one as a kid.

As they say, the acorn doesn't fall too far from the tree, so children of active parents will tend to be active themselves, and then have active kids of their own someday. It's a bit like preaching to the choir to discuss it here, so I would posit that to expand the sport we have to reach out to those that aren't inherently exposed to it. Volunteer sailing programs with local schools, community groups, etc? Take your neighbors/friends kids sailing? Conduct sailing club fund raisers, buy some learner boats, and reach-out to the community?

Bottom line is we have to get new ones on the water. Once we do that, the rest takes care of itself.

This seems to be the required "first step." If multihulls become a regular part of every sailing/yacht club, then we have a chance to grow the multihulls. I'm not sure that sailing, as a sport, isn't a "net zero" sport, i.e., we aren't growing the number of sailors. Getting into the yacht clubs might increase the number of cat sailors.

Overall, however, getting kids sailing in anything is a good first step to getting them on beach cats. They don't have to start on cats, IMHO.

Does anyone in the States remember the "Fast is Fun" program? Art Stevens had 5 Hobie Waves that he would take around the country to clubs where kids were already sailing Opti's. I tried to find out what ever became of that program but can't get any contact with Art, now that he is out of the program.

I remember reading in a Sail magazine, back when the Wave was first introduced (1994?) they did a test of new "Kid's Boats" with the Opti, JY Opti, Byte, etc. and the Wave. I remember reading that overwhelmingly, the kid's FAVORTIE boat was the Wave. The two reasons were: "It's Fast" and "We can sail with a friend".

After I read that, I figured the Wave would become the new Opti, but here we are, more than 10 years later, when I go to Yacht Clubs all I see are racks and racks of Opti's and Lasers. No Waves. Why is that, if that is the boat the kids prefer?

I think there is a fair amount of Yacht Club bias towards the mono dinghy pipeline. The steps are well worn, Opti, Laser Radial, Laser, 420, 470. They sell it as "The way to the Olympics" or to Jr. Olympics. Cats only have what, the Wave, with no real Jr. racing program other than Rick doing it alone, and Hobie 16 as the Jr. boat. They take up a lot of room on the beach (no rack storage for cats) and most clubs don't even HAVE a beach in the first place. The Opti racers have 4 classes to chose from, from beginner to experienced, they have built an excellent program over the years. I had hoped Hobie would try to do the same with the Wave, but I don't see too many at Yacht Clubs.

So we have to overcome at least two problems right there: 1. get a Jr. racing pipeline established and 2. storage space. The first you could do, but the space? Most clubs I've been to just don't have the extra space available to store 10 Hobie 16's + Waves, nor a beach to launch them from. And most of our regattas are not held out of a Club, but from a good cat launching site. So even if you had a Club full of kids ready and willing to race a Wave type Jr. Cat, they would have to hold their own small regattas or load it up and travel to a regatta. Easisly done with an Opti or Laser on the top of Dad's car, not as easy with with a trailer boat.

Cost? Well, 10 years ago a new "Full Race" Opti was selling for about $3,500, for an 8' bathtub! A new Laser is over $5,000 now. I would guess a new 420 would have to be at least $7-10K? So that is what you will be competing with.

Speaking of youth, this 14-year old has just crossed the Atlantic making him the youngest sailer ever to do so.
[http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/auto/newsdesk/20070003092614ymnews.html
Google News

I'm a bit surprised that windsurfing is not mentioned as a way to get started in sailing.
IMHO there are a lot of parallels with high-performance sailboats like cats, skiffs, etc.
like the use of a trapeze, rig and sail tuning (and lots of swimming<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />).

I thought this was starting as a get kids on the water post, but I read quite a few remarks about pulling the kids from the lasers to our "new" cat. Which is it?

If the point is to pull the kids from mono's to cats, then sure, a boat that looks cool with fast graphics is affordable and easy to use is a must. But don't forget that you have to convince the parent to buy it for the kids, or a club to purchase a handful of them for kids to "rent". Keep in mind though, you're not actually growing the number of sailing youth, just converting them to multi's.

If you want to grow the number of sailing kids out there, I don't think a new boat design is going to help. You need to change the PERCEPTION of sailing, not the WAY you sail. I grew up on the water, but we had ski boats and paddle boats. The sail powered boats on the lakes were just an annoyance... besides, why would anyone in their right mind want to pay money for a boat that doesn't get you directly from point a to point b, occasionally dumps upside down, and compared to our 45 Johnson, barely moves across the water?

My testimony: When I was about 10, my brother spent $50 of his hard earned paper route money on a wind surfer. Sure, it was a beat up piece of junk with what seemed like a 16' board that seemed to weigh 200 lbs, but it was a blast to go out on. That $50 board is what got me hooked on wind sports, not the clubs or racing fleets. To this day, I have no desire to participate in a buoy race... some of the distance races sound interesting... but for me, it's getting my friends out on the boat and enjoying the afternoon ripping around the lake with no motor. I absolutely love getting someone who has never sailed on my boat. The first thing they say is WOW, we’re going really fast! My response is always the same… this is nice, but you should see it when it’s really blowing.

When I talk to people who have never sailed (adults and kids), the view is pretty much the same, it might be fun to try sometime, but it _looks_ pretty slow and boring. Change that perception and you will grow sailing in both the youth and adults.

How do you change an entire cultures perception? Money. You have to inform the public of how fast some of these boats really are. You can't just look at a cat flying across the ocean at 30 knots and realize the speed unless you have something to relate it to. We all know how bloody fast 30 knots on the water is, but a 12 year old doesn't. The adult who's never been in a boat skipping across the water doesn't. They need to relate that boat speed to something they've done. Run commercials of people water skiing behind a cat or show Lance Armstrong riding a bike along a lake and a cat blowing past him. Show an ultra light flying low over the water with a cat sailing faster than its flying. Now you're showing the general population how fast these things are.

Once you change the general view of sailing from being a slow wine and dine type of thing to an all afternoon adrenaline rush, you'll see the participation numbers climb.

Don't get me wrong, it's nice to see some creativity and some of the collaborative thinking on this topic, but I think the main point should be to get kids out sailing. Doesn't matter what they sail, just get them on the water.