Well...I've been away for the past few hours setting up our Hobie Fleet 297 display at the Kansas City Boat Show (Bartle Exposition Hall, Booth 212, Wed thru Sun, stop by and say hello!). Have to run now for the Building Committee meeting on the new Sailing Center...starts at 8:30.

Maybe later I'll have time to oil up the jig saw and tidy up the garage.

When we have a boat built we'll start talking.

F12 enthousiasts,

At the following link I have placed a document that is intended to set the first steps in getting this design project structured properly.

www.xs4all.nl/~whijink/formula_12/The_Formula_12_sailboat_project.doc

It is a word 97 file.

This 280 post breanstorm session we had over the last 7 days was both inspiring and overwhelming. But the time has come to make sure that the efforts of one volunteer build on those of another and that with each step we get closer to completing the design and building of a prototype.

I'm back at work so I too will have to work alot more efficiently then I have done of the last couple of days.

On the work done already I say that this project has a really promising outlook. Sure we'll encounter some setbacks and hick-ups along the way but the numbers have already shown that this basic F12 setup has ample merit. To name one example. Performance approaching that of the H16 is expected and that is really fast for a 12 foot design. Also the goal of 3000 US$ or less seems very reasonable even with bought rudders and such.

So I propose to start implementing the steps described in the document and get this project under way properly so mangan can build our prototype !

Who is with me !?



Wouter

How about something along the lines of what the Soapbox derby has done in the past for gravity car racing (young teens in the US)?

Set up your formula format, offer scholarship prizes at local/regional/national/international levels (the higher the level, the greater the amount of the scholarship/savings bonds for educational use). By offering educational scholarships, the parent would have a “justification” to spend money on the project “it’s not frivolous waste of money…it for their education”, that coupled with the opportunity to make life long memories, teaching young teens how to work with tools, and share their love for sailing all accomplished at the same time.

The design can be tweaked to anything within the box rules, allowing for freedom of individual expression (just like the soap box derb, where people don’t complain about everyone not racing the exact same car).

The stock base plan you are working on could be offered for those who are not interested in “designing their own” but want to build, or used as a starting place to make modifications. Building "work shops" could be held on weekends to help children/parents who do not have wood working/fiberglass skills, given by volunteers who would like to share their boat building skills with the next generation

The rig could be offered for sale by the governing body just as the axles and wheels are for the cars. The youth get a local business to sponsor them by providing the funds to purchase the rig at cost from the governing body. By taking the expense of the rig out of the equation, the overall cost is substantially reduced, attracting more sponsors than if they had to absorb the cost of a whole boat.

Finding sponsors to fund the soap box cars is not a big problem.
A parent owned business, or employer is frequently the source. Many businesses would love to have their company name on the side of a cat, photos of them splashed in the sports section of the Sunday paper, the sponsors can pay for it out of there advertising budget..

A win for the child…he/she gets to learn how to build something with his/her hands, an opportunity to see it all come together from design to completion…experience not only sailing…but sailing on a boat they created. A win for the Dad/Mom who get to spend intimate time with their son or daughter, working on a project together and forming priceless memories while being able to pass on their love for sailing. A win for the local sponsors as they get to help a child develop character, and be a advertising partner in a unique opportunity that could ultimately expose his/her business to local/regional/national/global markets. A win for sailing as it has the potential to introduce a whole new generation to catamaran sailing.

A Win/Win/Win/Win situation...what more could you want?

This is just one answer of “How” it could be done.

Regards,
Bob

Hi Wouter

Just to clarify, the proposed class rules in the document are the ones the prototypes are to comply with, or are they just proposed class rules that could be introduced or voted on in the future?

I just think a couple of the rules restrict development in a developmental class. I don't think any rules should be settled on even as proposed rules until some further discussion or ballot takes place. I've spoken to several sailors over here (Oztralia), some involved with the forum and some not, but we seem to have some different ideas, most which have floated on the forum already.

Apart from that it all looks pretty good.

I don't know if means much but as far as I'm concerned, you'd be the man for the project manager, so I guess I second that. But you will have to answer to the board of directors <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Anyway let the games begin....or continue <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Regards

Reading through Wouters document with an emphasis on safety, has just reminded that this boat is not going to lie on its side if it capsizes, it is almost certainly going to turn turtle straight away with the short mast setup, so you are probably going to need make provision for a mast head float.

Gareth

Having looked at the windsurfing rig and giving it a thumbs up have you considered using windsurfing race dagger boards for rudders, I've been sort of looking at them for my F16 as the trend is getting smaller and smaller surface areas as per the A class, the couple of old ones I have from older windsurf boards ( given to me from a local windsurf school ) are not quite big enough for the F16 but a smaller rigged 12ft'er, now that maybe a possibility + there are loads of these just laying around.

Gareth,
This really gets us back to who is the target market for the boat.
If it is children 7 to 12 yrs that weigh less than 60kg then having the boat invert could be a good thing.
An inverted boat does not drift anywhere near as quick as a boat on its side. They could catch up with an inverted boat but never catch a boat on its side.
Very young children are unlikely to be able to right the boat and the inverted boat provides a safe area between the hulls where the children can wait in for assistance.

Regards,
Phill

Phill, now you are taking all the fun out of it for the kids. The thing they most like to do is capsize the boat. If they aren't going to be able to right it again by themselves, what is the fun in that?

Had an hour or so to play with my design last night. This is the Mk2 version:

Good point Phill,

Mary, its swings and roundabouts, a cat is the best diving platform in the world so they might be willing to trade being able to right the boat. Many kids might find an inverted cat more fun than one the right way up <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

To my mind the main advantage of an F12 for young children is stability not performance.

Gareth

If we take the Laser Funboat as an example (much as I hate the damn things) - all the kids we teach, seem to prefer turtling them and then 'bombing' each other from the upturned hull. With such a small rig they're also an absolute doddle to right from turtle.

I have to say I can't blame the kids as those boats make better platforms than sailing boats for teaching purposes. Our real teaching is now in Toppers.

I don't think so, Grob. Better to have the masthead float. Do you want a child to get trapped underneath a turtled boat?

After all, if this is used for kids, it is probably going to be in an organized program, because it would be necessary to have a chase boat to keep them out of trouble. It's not like you can take it to the beach and shove your kids off and wave goodbye.

Why is that? what is going to make an F12 different, so we don't fall into the same trap?

Gareth

Have you seen a Funboat?

Dinky little skegs on rounded hulls that weigh about 100Kgs. Single rudder and a rig set well forward that doesn't have enough power (or shape) to drive the thing upwind at a proper angle. The kids end up reaching everywhere and invariably have to gybe round to change direction because, unless you REALLY know what you are doing, it's almost impossible to tack.

This is something we really need to avoid, I think that the F12 has to be very manouverable, (another thing that I beleive is more important than speed). I am little concerned that with the current hull shape and no boards we may be falling into the same trap.

Gareth

I'm not sure why you took all this to be so negative, I never said anything derogatory about the design, never said you guys don't know what you're doing (designing a boat), and never said "it won't work". think it's an interesting project, but one that (currently) doesn't have an implementation plan or a clearly defined customer. I know it's a home built designed for fathers & mothers to build for their kids and that several of you here are chomping at the bit to build. However in order to do genuine marketability and feasibility assessments, it needs to go further than that customer base and will likely be different between local regions. If Joe Blow (who knew little about sailing) decided he was going to build his son a boat, there are a lot of other options out there. Obviously, the general consensus here is not interested in this line of thought at this time so I'll let it be.

Valid points Jake, and work to be done if this project is really going to get anywhere. I was under the impression though that this is 'a good idea' that might go somewhere once a few are built. You know, sort of self energising. If this is going to be a structured effort to start an introductory youth class then we need more expertise and effort than is currently being displayed in this thread.

I for one, will be going my own sweet way and, when time allows, build my own design of F12 for my 13 yr old son to sail. He's currently in the RYA Topper squad but is proving too light for a Topper once the breeze gets above 10mph. An F12 could be the answer. Light, fast and cheap.

There will be at least two in the UK then, as I will build one for my kids.

Gareth

Ahh...Worthy of discussion as F12: Promotion of a Product or F12: Marketing to the Masses?

Grass Roots method is all I can offer.

Personally, I'm not interested in marketting, not interested in implementation plans, or feasibility studies, etc...

I just want a set of plans for a small boat I can build in my half of the garage. If I can help serve others' goals with no skin off my back, I'm all for it.