Making a more accessible webpage is somewhere on my to do list but that listing has gotten pretty long lately. I didn't quite expect the response when I first place the F12 picture in this posting :


http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...;Number=94107&page=&vc=1

In response to the questions asked by you Mary in the thread "The perfect world for beach cats? "





Yes,

Additionally I want to get these two discussion threads of the main page as they are now pushing all other postings off the first page. I don't think that to be a good thing for www.catsailor.com

Is it possible that Rick copies the two F12 threads and the one which you started to this new forum ? I really don't want to loose these threads in the 65.000 other posting in the mean forum ?

Thanks alot for your help.

Wouter

The threads on the open forum cannot be transferred. But for your own use all you have to do is put them in your "Favorite Topics," and you will have them saved forever and can access them easily. If you want to transfer some of your posts over to threads in the new forum, you would have to do that manually, with copy and paste.

As a gesture of good will I have reviewed all of your posts in the F12 threads and answered them again.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~whijink/formula_12/Pat.doc


I'm quite intrigued as to what things you can offer that defy my understanding. Your comment made me wonder if I had missed something, but I really haven't found anything in your posts that would come close to that. This is nothing personal but just a honest appreciation of the facts at hand.

So surprise me ! Or rather, surprise us all.

Wouter

Nice one! I'd like to build a small fleet. My kids will love this…<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Wouter
Good will should be there from the begining.
I could offer that there are many many people out there that would be very valuable to this effort that will have nothing to do with based on how you act.
I base this statement on the variuos PM's, emails, phone calls and face to face meetings I've had with people over the last week.

When your truly good at anything, you don't have to tell anyone.
This isn't to say you don't have ability. What you do have will not be appreciated much until you learn to handle yourself in a professional manner.

I will stay out of this now.

Humpf, I haven't figured out how to link to a specific post <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Right,

Well, nobody is stopping "your network" from succesfully inplementing a rival (youth) project totally unrelated to Wouter Hijink.

I'm sure there are other ways of getting things done then the Wouter method, but I can't transform myself into somebody other then Wouter. In turn your guys won't have anything to do with F12 and this will circle back onto itself for ever.

Effectively making this a "Could have, Would have, Should have" discussion.

In my experience these are not very helpful in getting things done.

As such your idea to end it is a good one.


Thanks for the parental advice about learning to behave myself in a professional manner.

Wouter

I wouldn't work for someone (i.e. for money) that treated people the way that you have so I have very little interest in volunteering for such abuse. So no, sorry, I'm not interested in assisting at this point.

I think this thread needs moving to the F12 forum !

Wouter…why so caustic? I thought you were the right man to head this thing but obviously I was wrong. Your talent and experience with the F16 has been overshadowed by your inability to communicate in a civil manner.

Contrary to your belief… you are not the first person to design or propose to build a 12 foot catamaran. When you go into the mine, mine, mine rant you sound like Al Gore when he was running around telling everyone he invented the internet. It’s ludicrous.

You have a lot to offer on the positive side of things, why do you feel the need to pick a fight with everyone you come into contact with? Why are you always so pissed off at the world?

Regards,
Bob

Well, maybe I'm just not such a nice guy ?

Over a beer and a bowl of peanuts I'm probably alright.

But when working to get results ... ?

To be honest, I don't know how else to get results.


Well, maybe it is wise to turn this whole thing around.

I propose that the group of persons having problems with me personally will find a new F12 project manager and the soon as he (or she) presents himself I will step aside and completely leave the project.

The new manager can then proceed to teach me and everybody else how to get results in a nice and civilized manner.

I'm really serious about it.

Lets give this a go.


Wouter

Why not let's put away the ego and get to work. ..... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Wouter,

While I don’t often participate in the discussions on CatSailor, I am an avid daily reader. I must tell you that I admire your drive, creativeness and passion for catamaran sailing. I enjoy reading your technical comments because they seem to me well thought out.

I also admire the way you have taken the initiative of this F12 project, because I know how difficult it is to lead a project. I started a business against great odds and against the advice of many nay-sayers, and I recall all the times that I had to stick to my vision and rely on my drive to get the job done. Even though I had many people working for me, I often found myself working long hours in isolation.

While initially this served me well, my business was only a marginal success, which frustrated me greatly. I couldn’t understand why so employees stood on the sidelines taking potshots with crazy ideas and didn’t get with the program to make the company suceed. Often I found their advice ill-informed, frustrating, and distracting and I began to question their motives. However, a close friend and confidant suggested to me that my actions discouraged my staff from participating and that ultimately my company would fail due to my actions (or in-action).

So, against my instincts, I started to listen and encourage dialogue. Often I had to fight back the temptation to lash out at ridiculous notions to keep the ideas coming. However, as the President, I got to choose to implement what made sense and what didn’t. When I held back my harsh criticism on the bad ideas and went out of my way to recognize and implement the good ones, I quickly found out that I was able to accomplish far more with the help of many than I ever could alone. Not surprising my business grew very quickly and profitably.

I don't know if there is a corollary here between my business and your F12 project, but my sense is that most people admire your work and want the project to succeed, and genuinely want to help, but are frustrated and concerned that your actions may impede the success of the F12 program.

While I wish I could provide the technical and logistical help you seek, I hope that sharing my personal experience will help your project succeed. Perhaps resisting the temptation to criticize may in the end get you the help that you’re looking for.

Good luck – I hope to be able to build an F12 for my 10 year old daughter next fall!

Willem Nieuwkerk

That was nicely put ! And even though we keep out heads down most of the time, I think that the majority of us feel the same way. Well done to everyone working on this project.

Now this is an excellent post.




Now this is exactly what it is.

With the possible exception that I do understand that this indeed happens and that I really don't really question their motives. But I also found that that really doesn't matter much because they still make ....

Maybe I even find that the most frustrating of all.

Also I wish people in general realized that there is a whole lot of work involved. And that after posting an good idea is takes many many many hours to design the idea into something that actually works. I found it frustrating to see the initial poster taking more credit for the end result then the guys who put all the hard work in. Smart idea's are very good but also only 5 % of the total project. Hence the "father F12" spin-off.

That is the problem of this situation with the F12 as seen from my viewpoint.

How to solve this ?

Your suggestions are pretty much the only available route aside from just developping this F12 with people who take the good with the bad and can work with me and hate me at the same time.

I think that I grew cynical over time with other projects. Not a good character feature, I admit, but also a really hard one to beat. Now I can do this F12 succesfully as project manager, but as it is a demanding and tedious job to be done in the little hours of the night after a tiring days work for no extra pay. So I fear I won't be really able to rise much to the desired level, that would take more energy then I'm able to give at this time.


Therefor again, I'm fully prepared to be replaced as project manager. I mean this very seriously.

I really won't hold it against anyone if they support the new guy. Hell, I really would love to sit back myself and make all kinds of (possibly ill-informed, frustrating, and distracting) suggestions to be worked out by other people and then still claim that my contributions were key developments. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (joke!)

If nobody does step up to the plate then maybe we all should just consider the words :

"You go to war with the army that you have, not with the one you want"

As in having an F12 but learning to forgive Wouter for being a ****, or not having an F12 at all.


Wouter

Well, if it would help you, we could eliminate this forum, I suppose, so you would be able to work in peace and solitude without outside influences and aggravations. But Rick won't have time to do that until next week when Tradewinds is out of the way. Let us know what you would like to do.

Wouter and all,

You Wouter, remind me of my father. He is very intelligent and has an inventive nature. Never spent a dime on anything he could do himself, even if it took him all day to do so, taking extensive research and building of jigs and tools to complete.

He also never understood why everyone else did not see things as he did. And this truly bothered him. His analytical mind could not fathom another human not processing things as he did. My nature is creative and I used to annoy him to no end by asking questions. ALWAYS, his immediate reponse was one of chastisment, followed by an answer. I've experienced embarassing public situations as a result of this (for him as well as me) and after the fact would come apologies, if necessary. If a deep conviction of his was present no apologies where offered. Notice a similarity here? (BTW, early in my marraige my wife thought I should go to counseling because I was surely damaged by my father's behavior!)

Human nature. We're ALL different, but some tendancies are similar. I work in a business that is dominated by Type A driver personalities. Meetings often border on hilarity while "opinion/edict" are expressed. All us Type C's nod in agreement and go then off to get things done. It takes all the personality types to make things work.

I grew up in and live in the current scenario. I know if I'm patient good things will come and no real harm is meant. It's just the delivery method.

Another two cents worth <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

And Mary, thank you.

You remind me of my Mother. "Now if you children can't behave and get along I'll just have your Father take that and put it away for good! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Lets keep the forum.

I'm just proposing somebody else taking the reigns of this project then myself.

The F12 project will continue, I'm sure.

If nobody steps up to the plate then things will quiet down anyway and Phill and I will just get on with designing it.

Besides, I feel this forum could then in that case by used to great benefit to have the potential owners influence the design before it is finalized.

Wouter

You know, I've read and re-read this thread (and the other two related threads). I've considered different ways of taking some of the comments and outright statements that have been made against (and in favour of) various contributors. There seems to be very little goodwill being shown (in any camp). I've lost all appetite for this project in the present circumstances. Regretfully, I'll now work out something on my own that could possibly be considered a F12. I hope you all have fun bickering among yourselves.

Hey Wouter and Co, the best thing you guys can do is publish a F12 box rule based on the F16 project ( which I suspect is already complete but not published ) and then get on with your own projects, make a bit of money out of selling plans and set up your own website to support those plans.

Unfortunately there are do'ers and talk'ers in the world, the do'ers just seem to get on with things, the talkers seem to just well talk about it. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />