This is easy to answer.

For the sake of the argument I shall not press home the point that the F12 is not specically for kids, but more for any person in the range 40-65 kg. This will also include teenagers and small adults.

But back to just youths.


One-design boats simply aren't fair to youths.

First of all how One-Design are youths anyway ?

If they aren't then why should the boats be ?

Allowing some freedom in adjusting the stiffness of the rig and sail cut will allow some of the inequalities between kids to be corrected. It has been shown many times that the classes with the highest sensitivity the crew weights are the OD classes.

It is in my personal opinion a downright myth that differences in material (under formula rules) are significant when compared to differences in crew skill. It is incredibally easy to show how different designs result in maybe 1%-3% difference in performance while differences in crew skill will easily result in up to 30% difference in performance. And we should not forget that aging boats will sails older then 2 years will also be about 1%-3% slower around the course. In short, if your kids needs to sqeeze out those last 1%-3% of performance then he needs to by new gear every two years anyway, irrespectably whether he is sailing in a formula class or OD class. If that is the case why then accept the downsides of OD classes which are :

-1- expensive replacement parts, sometimes even of mediocre quality.
-2- not allowed to source your own (local) suppliers of parts or make them yourself.
-3- no continued (but slowed down) development, meaning the class will grow outdated in 10 to 15 years time.
-4- less builder support as only one builders needs to do everything. Why do formula classes come up so strong ? Because several builders and suppliers are pushing it in one coordinated effort.
-5- A nightmere scenario when having to check boats for compliance at events. EVERYTHING needs to be checked.
-6- Either the design is very good but impossible to homebuild or it can be easily homebuild but everybody is sailing bathtubs.
-7- OD doesn't allow quick and dirty homebuilds to allow easy and inexpensive acces to sailing.
-8- Problems when US builders are not using the SI unit system. Is 1/16 steel wires the same as 3 mm steel wire ? Ask the Hobie 16's how such a thing lead to a right protest frenzy at one event. At one event in the 80's the crews were checking eachother boats with caliphers trying to spot US stays and protest the owner out of competition. That will be a good behaviour for your kid to learn.




That may be true to some small extend, but how is this different from your kid chosing the right tennis racket for himself or the right mountain bike or even the right track shoes or skis/snowboards?

Why do we in sailing land think that chosing the right gear for your body setup and preference shouldn't be a normal part of competing ? In by far most sports it is. A top level tennis player will replace his racket 4 times during a game ! If you choose the wrong mountain bike gear setup for the course then you have a problem.

How many one-design cycling events do we have ? If you go and play tennis, do you make it a point to play with the same racket ?


As such having to choose and optimize your gear to suit your body and way of sailing is actually sending the right message to your kids.

And it does benefit youth sailing by being.

-1- cheaper
-2- better available
-3- better developped
-4- better promoted by a bunch of builders (future)


But I think that this has been discussed many times over Mary. You do seem to ask this question a few times a year.

Doesn't the wave class allow different mainsails ?

Wouter

Thanks Wouter,

Something in the back of my mind was saying how could only the hull shape have that great a significance in speed, when weight and size of the sailor will be varying wildly.

Of course us adults can get all wound up in thing such as whether 800, 1200 or 2000 paper is sufficient for our boards, when the nut on the tiller has exponentially more affect on performance.

OF COURSE, we do. The Wave is a one-design boat. So just as with most one-design sailboats, you can get your "motor" cut flat, medium or full to accommodate your crew weight and/or your normal sailing conditions.

I don't see how that has anything to do with modifications in platforms.

You have an opportunity here to create a little, one-design catamaran for kids, that ALSO can have sails cut to suit weight -- just like the Tornado. And the home-builders could make their own sails, too, and try out different fullnesses and shapes within the class sail measurements.

I understand both points of view on this issue, but think that if you are going to get parents and more particularly yatch clubs and kids racing programs involved and "buying" into it, OD is probably an easier sell than a formula approach. The Tornado itself is still a development class, just with tight restrictions as to the development progression. The hull shape is closely defined, but there is around a 5-10mm varience that can be used to alter the shape and performance of the hulls. As to the fact that 99% of the boats raced are from one builder, it is virtually OD. Back to the point though, OD for class development is an easier sell to youth programs.

I wonder if that is the variance allowance that was put in the original rules when the requirement was that the catamaran for the Olympics would have to be able to be home-built. Obviously, it would be more difficult to build a boat in your garage to the same tolerances as in Marstrom's factory. So maybe they allowed a little slack in the rules for the people who could not get their plywood bent quite to the right shape?

We need to decide what group we are aiming for. I have heard everything from youths to teenagers and small adults. IT will be hard to market to both of these groups.

As for OD vs Formula, just think about it if it is OD. Some kid buys this boat cheap and has to replace some worn out part. To buy this part new costs 100 dollars while he can go out and find one that works at the local hardware store for 15. Now he can't race, that isn't what we want. I have heard horror stories of people being turned away from Hobie events because of tiny little pieces that didn't match.

Also I think that a glass over ply seems like the best idea and with the strip of aluminum along the bottom of the boat it should be fairly resistant to most things.

No, no, no. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Don't confuse one-design with one-design-single-manufacturer. Those are two different things entirely.

Interesting thread but I'm not sure that it will catch on. Kids want bang for bucks, that means hopping onto a fully rigged boat and stepping off at the other end, now you and I think that may or not be the case but from experiance of the kids of today, thats the sad truth. If the set up time takes longer than their Play Station then you are onto a loser. Parents are mainly to blame as we have become so used to a service led society that with our too limited spare time, we want to just get out there ourselves and pay somebody else to teach our kids.

As much as we would like to think that people will spend many hours building a boat I can tell you that only the dedicated parent will make them and he / she will be mainly in it for the thrill of " making the finest and best design" he can, which lends nicely to the freedom of a Formulae class. Kids are going to be only the end user product of a parents desire to build a boat.

As to halting the general decline in sporting activity in our kids then I'm afraid we need to look at our lifestyles first, sort out that and give ourselves more time to paricipate with our kids and I would bet that the kids would then be willingly to go sailing as there are a lot of good times to be had whilst sailing.

gree,

Check the parts list. The Dotan stocks and rudders will be about $1K or better for the pair. A new sail may be $800. All will add up fast. Conversely, I have several Hobie rudder assemblies from dead boats, will they be as easy for a ten year old to operate as Dotans? No, but they're "almost" free. Some searching the windsurf clubs may net a suitable sail for next to nothing as well.

You're right, it could be built cheap.

I understand that the stuff will add up fast. But if this boat is going to be a boat for the masses then it has to be cheap!
The designers of this boat need to aim very high (low price) that way if you miss the mark the boat is still cheap.
This is what needs to be done if the boat is to be successful.

Has anyone mentioned A-class? The boats are extremely equal in performance, but it's a formula class if ever there was one.

Did you get a quote on that ?

But considering that the rudders both act as rudders and centreboards on these F12's an investment if proper gear will be well worth it from a performance point of view.



That is for a class 5 landyacht sail from a very respected sailmaker like R&J sails (supplier of champions in the landyacht business).

You are not paying so much for the materials or even the labour but for this company's expertise and ability to build winning sails.

Building these sails yourself should really be won of the more simple tasks if the panel layout of decent sail would be known.

In the coming weeks I may look very closely to my own R&J class 5 sails and see how it is build up. If it is simple enough then we may be able to adjust it to suit the F12 boat (more draft in sail)

Personally I wouldn't hesitate making my own sail if I knew that I had the panels dimensions of a decent sail. Dacron cloth is not that expensive and the building method is just basic sewing.

Wouter

Currently alot of money is taken out of the design but not using any specilized gear like traveller rails, cleats, blocks, shackles, etc. Surprisingly enough this does safe a bundle.

But in order to make it really cheap you have to accept doing alot of building yourself.

Expecting somebody else to build the stuff at some reasonable quality and then only pay "ice-cream" money is simply unrealistic. The guy doing the labour is doing so to pay the morgage, childrens education fund and his own retirement. Like that it will never be dirt cheap.

I'll show you more of the design shortly

Wouter

[/quote]
I wonder if that is the variance allowance that was put in the original rules when the requirement was that the catamaran for the Olympics would have to be able to be home-built. Obviously, it would be more difficult to build a boat in your garage to the same tolerances as in Marstrom's factory. So maybe they allowed a little slack in the rules for the people who could not get their plywood bent quite to the right shape? [/quote]

That may be, but part of the reason truly was to allow differences in hull shape. Ie, Yankee Laminates Tornados had a finer bow entry and was pushed to the maximum tolerances at the deck line. This gave the hulls at the bow more volume with the thought being that it would create greater bouyancy. So you basically had four different designs, even though minor between Marstom, Sailcraft of Canada, Reg White and Yankee Laminates. It is too bad that the home built loophole has been closed for the Tornado Association. I think that I built one of the last allowed home-built Tornados.

No. Based on pricing "comments" from a Dotan retrofit post found via google (don't know how old) and roostersailing


OK, I'm trying to help gree identify where this $3K number is coming from.

This setup in indeed the Dotan setup I was looking at.

£236.00 = 350 euro or 457 US$

So 700 Euro c.q. 914 USD for a pair.

That is quite an attractive pricing.

And the rudders will be the most expensive part on the boat after maybe the hulls. For that price I would consider buying these rudders that is if they are up to specs and stiff. As I wrote earlier the rudders will replace the daggerboard to a significant extent so a proper rudder design will go a long way in improving upwind performance.

I've noted this info down in the design paper thanks for looking it up.



Ohh, sorry, but only coined the 3000 USD mark because that is what I'm trying to get to. The onderlaying thought is that Vanguard sells the optimist dinghy for 2500 US$ and I want to stay close to that. Therefor I personally consider anything under 3000 USD a succes for the F12. It is not based on real costs yet. It is just a design goal at this time.

Still it is looking good on this aspect.

Does anybody know what sheets of 4 or 3 mm ply cost in US$ and Euro, highest quality ?

Wouter

Wouter,

If I remember the price correcty the BS1088 was 14 euros / m², so one sheet was ~42 euros. This propably has some sort of Finland tax included, so I assume that it should be lot cheaper in some other country.

--
Valtteri

Two words - Arafura Cadet -!!!
Little brother to the Arrow, home made ply hulls from plans available from the Arrow association, 11' long, (I think from memory 6’ wide), sloop rigged, goes like the clappers, takes an unbelievable hiding and just lasts and last forever, has been a successful class for over 40 years (they have had "national titles" every year in conjunction with the Arrows) and has just recently started to grow in numbers again, is commonly roof racked and stored tied up under the roof of a garage or shed. Seems to me that you are trying to reinvent the wheel? Sailed one up by an adult or by two juniors, and CHEAP.

I googled the Cadet and the first link was to Phill's website. He even talks about building it there.
Cadet

Phill is one of the ones wanting to do this, so I assume he knows why.

The Cadet certainly proves this approach works (at least in AU). The choices of home build boats there is astounding.

What I see in comparison to the Cadet
the F12 has;
no trapeze, no side stays, no fore stay,
no separate downhaul, no mast track and halyard,
no jib and halyard

...a very simple, and short, setup time. Hopefully that is an appealing goal to US homebuilders. A boat that can be on the water in a flash.

I wonder what does the Cadet weigh?