Looks like someone just answered my vision with the M20 and tornado rig. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Check the main forum post on the new 20 launched at Texel.

Slightly off topic, but... still on topic.

With regards to construction, when J-boats moved to SCRIMP (aka "infusion") several (~10?) years ago, they started using what they called "resin rivets" (first boat was the J80). The core has holes in it that allow resin to bond to resin on both sides of the core.

Outside of the current splotches of Nacra 6.0's and H-20 camps, the only available "fast" 20 footer available to the regular guy is the Nacra 20. All the other 20 footers are out of reach ($$) for the guys that are attracted to to the 20 foot boats. F 20 or HT 20 is going to need to be very affordable to be successful, there are too mant other viable options at this time.

Will,

a bit late for a reply, but "resin rivets" sound like a problem marketing put a spin on. I dont see much advantage to "resin rivets", but they do add weight and cost.

Eric,

I think you are wrong. Price is not the selling point as new boats are "too expensive" anyway. What is needed is the right combination of people and a good product.
I think there is a market for 20 footers, as the last I heard there was interest for homebuilding a new 20 foot design. Homebuilding a boat is an commitment off the scale compared to just buying a boat.

And I would add.... A series of 5 events that the boat would compete in against all comers for line honors.

For example:
Texel in Holland
Statue of Liberty Race in NYC
Mug Race in Florida
Miami Key Largo Race in Florida
Race to Oxford on the Chesapeake Bay

These events are similar to what the Ventilo M2 class is doing or the descion 35's one designs are doing . (M2 is a 27 foot three man cat sailed on the swiss alpine lakes the D35 is a 4 man boat.)

Also, a circuit of high profile buoy races would help the class grow... These events are less clear to identify.

So, do 20 foot boat buyers race more bouys or distance?

Seems the F18 and F16 guys do a lot more bouys than distance. Are we missing the marketing angle for distance sailors? Bouy sailors? or both?

Being in FL, I think that an I20 (or other 20ft design)is optimal (for me). Racing here offers the best of both worlds awesome distance races: Steeplechase, Hogsbreath, Hiram's, Tybee (someday), Macho Man, etc. And also great buoy racing: Tradewinds, JPOR, Eustis, Carlisle, etc. The I20 is the perfect boat to do all those races on.

I personally would agree with you Karl...

It would seem the design of the N20 makes it ideal for windward/leeward bouy races (small jib, high aspect main, asym spin). I think the M20 builds on this and would, in some circles, be considered a 'better' bouy boat

The length makes it a bit more comfortable in the chop compared to smaller boats, and more room = better sailing long distance. With the bigger jib, the N6.0 with spin sailplan would be advantageous. The low rear beam clearance on the N20 has occasionally lodged complaints by distance sailors

But what, in the opinion of current sailors/owners, is the 20 foot "niche". This would appear to be the place to begin to build a product/fleet around.

Kind of like building the F18-HT for the bouy niche and the Capricorn for distance (except put a bigger jib and a reefing main on the sailplan)

Just to add more complexity to the argument, what would be the ideal crew weight to design for, for the ideal 20?

I would guess 360 lbs +/-.

I'd concur. Somewhere around 350 US pounds minimum crew weight. I'd consider something around 380 US pounds as the "ideal" weight.

I typically race at around 380 and do pretty well. At the 5 rum regatta I was significantly lighter than that, probably in the 330 t0 340 range, and in the light air, we were very fast.

Aerynt,
I think the 20 ft boat should be designed for a weight of 160kg (360 lb) and up. This should not prevent lighter sailors from competing without penalty. It is just that the boats optimum all round performance should be more easily extracted from the boat by its intended target market.
I see the target market to be the larger sailors that want to sail a two up boat, both around the bouys and long distance.

Just the way I see it.

Regards,
Phill

thanks for all the opinions, I'm off to see the designer of the new LR2 next weekend to discuss the possibilities of a new 20 design

Exciting! Keep us posted...

Aerynt,

Are you looking at using the LR2 as a model for this design. Scale it up and make the changes needed to support, extra crew weight, jib, spi and double trap. Or are looking at a completely different design and thought process?

Obviously the LR2 would be the boat to base it on if its possible to do so.

have you seen these recent posts?

http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18037&page=5

Yes,

I keep up with this and keep in touch with Ian, John and Fred. But thanks. A 20 version definately could be interesting. My other cat is a Tornado. I like the 20" platform. I wonder what changes would need to be made to the platform other than LOA and beam to the boat to support the 160kg. Keep me informed as you progress.

This is the designers first pass at my boat, some things will get changed but I'm mostly happy (delirious happy perhaps?)with what they produced.
Spec so far:
LOA 6.1m
Beam 4.45m
Board down draft 1.34m
Beach weight 149 kg
Sailing weight 315 kg
Main, Jib & Mast 30.7 m^2
Medium Reacher 24.75 m^2
Big Reacher 32.8 m^2

The last couple of pics will be how it folds up to travel with.


Aerynt