Wouldn't it be better to hold an on-line meeting rather than a world meeting at Zandvoort? Surely this would be in the true essence of the F16 Class which was conceived online. It would also insure that the vast majority of F16 sailors could share their views.

Agreed.

What kind of meeting?

Mark is refering to the F-16 members meeting scheduled to be held during the GC at Zandvoort.
I agree with Mark, if there is something to be discussed or voted over, the forum where it all started is the place to do it.
I miss the old days where class business was discussed at length here and decided on by all interested members. As Mark say, the F-16 was started as a cyber class, and I would like it to stay that way. The open and unique way everything was discussed and having the possibility of influencing processes and decisions on an early stage (before AGM's or the yearly ballot) was something that was very attractive to me and got me hooked on the class. Running an organization that way is very inclusive and more in line with the ideal democracy of ancient Athens. Doing it this way have its drawbacks, but also a lot of positive sides.
I might win the "paranoid geek of the week" prize for this, but it looks like the class is turning more into a traditional organization?

Looks like a slow week on the forum, so its probably the ideal time for raising this issue, if there ever is such a time.


John, Hans, others?

So this meeting is not just for the council it is for everyone who owns a F16?

And Rolf I totally agree with you on what you said. Same applies to me, seems like we are steering more towards traditional class management.

one word.
BORING!

I also agree with Rolf and Robi. We don't have to follow what other Classes do, we have been unique so far so lets carry on being inspired by the majority of F16 sailors who read and reply on this forum.

Interesting to see that the class is already veering away from the way it was set up to a more formal class, I'm afraid that when a few personel ( no disrespect here, that s the way they want to run the show ) all gather at the top of the tree, how quickly their views can hold so much influence. I wonder if in the UK whether it will go the same way, we have a lot of less formal characters in the class and I would suspect the more formal maybe in the minority.

Wayne,

A couple of different things are going on here. I hate meetings, but having an organization that takes care of all the items required to build a sucessfull class is extremely important in order for the rest of us to be able to have races to attend and a class to be a part of. Unfortunately there is insurance, race organization etc, etc to put together. Otherwise it is just a couple of guys who happen to show up at a site to drink and sail. (Very fun for the couple of guys but not a class)

The reason I started racing and continue today is for the party. Sailing is my social outlet, and dedicated formality turns me off. However, it is a crap load of work to make sure these things happen and I greatly appreciate the people who are willing to put in any effort to help organize these things so we have events to attend.

Matt

I think you got it wrong Matt? I am not saying that the work done is unappreciated, wrong or uneccesary. What you just wrote is also very true, but that is not what this is about. This is about how I would like to see the class organize and run it's business at all levels and especiall at the top level.

Matt is absolutely right on. Otherwise, you are just a bunch of miscellaneous 16-foot boats relegated to racing on handicap, and you will never really become a "class" in the eyes of anybody but yourselves. Take a cue and a clue from the Formula 18 Class.

Oh geeze Mary thanks for the kind words. Extremely motivational I must say.

Having been involved in other sport " set ups " one has to be really careful to not make it too formal to begin with, the type of sailer we are going to get participating in F16 events will be ( as can be seen by the UK sailers ) on average, fun loving adventurous types ( if they wanted pure competition then they would ahve picked another class ), scare off those type of sailers and you have no grass roots support. When you get 50 boats at a meeting then yes you do have to start measuring the one or two boats which do look a bit weyward, until you reach that point then making things really formal with 3 days for measuring etc will put off more than attracting more participants.

Modelling ourselves on the F18's would be very wrong in my opinion and will stop the rapid growth we are experiancing. My hunch is that the majority of present participants are not impressed in the way the F18 class has evolved and like the less formal F16 approach. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Thank you. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Where is Hans, Hans and John? Vinter vacation?


Nice way of brushing against the hair Mary. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
"Take a cue and a clue from the Formula 18 Class."

For race organizers it dont matter how the F-16 class runs it's internal business as long as the class rules are clear, all dues paid and the sailors as a group are well behaved. You seem to imply that the only alternative to the "traditional" way of organizing a class is no organization. That is not the case, as demonstrated clearly by the F-16 class up til now. As said earlier. The F-16 class was incepted as a cyber class, and some of us would like to see what has been a formula to success continued instead of transformed to a "traditional" class.
I suppose many dont have an opinion on the matter, as this thread has been quite inactive. More the reason to debate the issue in the open.

If things are to be decided at Zandvoort; such as any changes to the class then these MUST be debated before hand and these must be put to a ballot of all members.

We need to build the basis for an association, then we can have membership, and then that membership can vote on proposals, then decisions can be made.

Some (me included) will not be at Zandvoort, if things are to be changed, those not going to Zandvoort need to be balloted. Very much in the same way that the Tornado class was balloted regarding adopting a platform all-up-weight, this was voted on by email and then the result published. There is no reason this cannot be done, once we have an association.

These things all take time and effort. Lets give John and Hans a chance to do their work.

I for one like the F16 class to remain different, remain more open and more flexible then the vast bulk of the competition. And as an example I will not support any minimum crew weight rules or whatever.

I would not like to see the F16 class become like the F18 class where their are too many rules to count and where the top level sailing is poisoning the enjoyment of sailing of a growing portion of the other crews.

Last year in events I was told by several F18 sailors that they are considering switching as the F18 class has become to much focussed on the extreme top of competitive sailors. A few already "tune-out" by intentionally registering as part of the open class instead of the F18 class.

I really like the F16 class to remain the class where now a good number of sailors are building their own boats. Where weekend warriors can have their day of glory. Where the fundamental onus is always on the sailing skills and where we simply won't have any bickering about who has got a miniscule advantage (by being 5 kg lighter in crew weight or something).

I'm personally looking forward to meeting all the internet names at the Zandvoort event and talking to them over a drink or meal. Lusting over the homemade craft that will come to the event and praising the owners about their dedication. Discussing rigging tricks and stories. Just as much as I will enjoy sharing the race course with them. I'm not really interested in the Zandvoort event being a Worlds in disguise or anything. The winner of this event will still (and only be) be the best sailor of the participants even if the event is called the Zandvoort fun race. And I'm sure the crews won't sail less competitively once the horn goes even when if it had been called that.

I think Matt McDonald and Gina have it right here. They value the events they go to because of the social things around the racing, while still doing their best to do well on the race course but without allowing that to dominate their event. And I think the Brits have the right view on things as well.


I would like to see F16 grow in that direction.

A class with a great social environment around their event and class (homebuilding ?) where the racing is enjoyable and well executed but not dominating the events as a whole. A good balance where neither leads to the degradation of the other. I never regarded the F16 class to become the next A-cat, F18 or Tornado class. If anything, the "Have a Hobie day" comes closest, but this time with a whole section added with respect to building the craft and optimizing them.

I hope lots of you guys are coming over and I do hope that the racing will be forfilling but not tiring enough so that we all can sit together in the evenings and fire up the BBQ and pop open a selection of my wine collection while enjoying the sun setting over the sea ever so slowly at 10:30 PM and admiring the "fire in the sky"

Or accompany a few crews (families) when they do some sight seeing on the rest day.

And have great fun during the last weekend when we will be that 20 boat strong F16 contignent in that 100 boat REM- race (distance race).

That is what I'm looking for in the (future) F16 class.

Wouter

Wouter,
I think you are describing "The Hobie Way of Life." <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Any organization needs management.

Those people elected to run the organization need room to run it efficiently, with out being side tracked every minute of the day trying to pacify minatory interest.

Those same elected people are allowed to have opinions and even campaign on how that organization is run.
They need to be aware that the organization is made up of individuals and even groups within the organization.

Any change to an organization needs to be formal and include all of it’s members. Weather members choose to take part is up to them. But they must be given the opportunity.
With the technology available to us today, that should not be a problem.

EG: The proposed meeting at Zandvoort should have an agenda posted, with an option for those members not attending to make comment and vote by Proxy. (simple, easy and democracy is served)
The pros and cons can be aired right here as they always have been.

The committee should set the agenda and add any time limits for additional matters to be added.
As well as a time limit for comment and voting.

Once the vote has been taken, all parties, members and committee need to accept it and move forward.

Having said all that. If we get bogged down debating issues that only the pointy end of the fleet will ever care about, we run the risk of loosing our bread and butter. That being the social sailor who wants to pay their fees and go racing on a level playing field.

For what it’s worth.

Tony Jenkins

Ps. Wouter, where were you hiding the wine stash? I don’t recall the sound of corks popping.

I offered you guys my stash many times, but you always prefered beer and Phill always preferred rum (but not the kind I had in the house)

Neither two of you cared much for the collection of liqeurs I kept.

Daniel prefered beer as well as did Geert. I think Anna-liese and I did do one bottle of wine and that was it.


Wouter

Wouter,

"Phill always preferred rum (but not the kind I had in the house)"


That didn't stop me, I almost got used to it by the time we left.


Regards,
Phill