With or without discards, it can be dodgy. At our nationals last Sept., excluding discards, the first 2 boats were on equal points. I had: 2, 6, 1, 1, 2. AJ had: 1, 3, 4, 3, 1.
If there were no discards, I won because I had 2nds where she had 3rds. With discards, I won by 2 points.
The races are in order, so if you look at them you will see that she beat me in 3 of the 5 races. But as Rick said consistancy counts.
On top of that, we were racing on handicap with F18s, Hurricanes & Darts, so when the Spitfire results were taken on their own, we both had 1sts and 2nds, so she beat me in the Spitfire class, even though I won the event overall.
All goes to show that it's a lottery anyway <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

For the past two years I've been trying to reduce the number of discards, throw outs for the F16 Nations Cup to no avail. People are so set in their ways I'm suprised how we actually managed to stop swimming around in the sea!!

Tie breakers is a whole 'nother can of worms. Since I am an ex-motocrosser, I like the tie to be broke by the last race. That is a designated way to break ties and SailWave supports it as well. And it is much more simple to keep track of.
And for adding electricity to the sport, it really puts the test to the sailors in the last race of a series. Do well and win.., do poorly and lose. And you know it after the race is over -- you don't have to wait until you are ashore and some machine figures it out.
Rick

As far as I know, with ISAF, if all points are still equal at the end, then last race result comes in.

I tried to do a little bit of research this morning and the first things I found were class histories (star, etc.) that started to adopt throw-outs in their championships in the late 60's through the late 70's. I didn't have enough time to keep looking but will do so - it's an interesting quandary.

I think we all know of the many arguments FOR throw outs, just as I think we all know of the many arguments AGAINST throw outs. It reminds me a little of the criteria for the “horse” IE, GOD created a horse and having the desire for a second opinion he formed a committee and asked them to design a horse to the same criteria, - the committee came up with a Camel
I don’t think it is important whether there are throw outs or no throw outs, what is important is that everyone who races in an event KNOWS beforehand just what the rules and conditions are, then it is FAIR to all competitors. If someone doesn’t like the criteria they don’t have to compete, but if they do compete, it’s no point in them saying after the event that some part of the rules were “unfair” to them. As long as it is the same for everyone the person who lost on a throw out (and complains about it) could just as easily have won on a throw out (and then you would hear no complaints), and that should be known and understood by them before they ever entered the event. To say “if it wasn’t for the throw outs I would have won” is like saying “It isn’t fair, if I had only had one number, one digit less, I would have won lotto” A bit like “spilt milk” if you ask me. You don’t expect to win on a “black Jack” hand in a game of draw poker – do you ???

Here's a question; Would you sail the regatta differently if you knew there would be no throwouts? How and why?

Dermot.... If it were a lottery... I doubt you would continue to play year after year.

It not a lottery... winning and loosing is subtle. AND when coupled with the slight variations in the game will result in different results.

So, you can win the overall regatta but loose in your one design class. Its not a crap shoot... its just the nature of the two games.

The US OPTI association has regattas with Red White, Blue and Green fleets (experience, age and skill factor).

So... they start all of the OPTI's together and score them one to fifty... Then they score you in your fleet. It was a big surprise to find out that Opti scoring does not rescore the sailors... If you were ahead of Sailor X in the overall... You will be ahead of sailor X in the Blue fleet score. (much easier to explain to kids)....

So... you can change the game in the NOR if you want.

My point is we have lots of different games, 0 to 2 discards, \Medal round, Season Highpoints, etc, etc

All have slightly different outcomes... but its not a crap shoot.. We set the rules... we get the results.

I second Darrel's point.

The would of, could of, monday moring quarterbacking is great to BS about... but this is not a reason to label… It a lottery, crap shoot or random dumb luck!

Mark

If there were no throw outs, firstly I would try to avoid any "protest" situation religiously (which could make me sail more "tentatively"), and ensure that I had no "breakages" that made me miss a race (this could keep me from "pushing" really hard). Most importantly, finish every race (no throw aways means sailing the "best odds" -IE, no chances). One missed finish would effectively finish all my chances. (that is the primary reason that there are throw outs, to compensate for "accidents" , the other "idiot" that wants to hit you or "acts of god)
Just a little exercise for the armchair sea lawyers.
This thread started about Bundy and Booth at the F18 worlds. If Booth had have been taken out of the last race at the start line in the five minute countdown by a collision with another boat (not Bundy’s) through no fault of his own, and had to retire would that have made Bundy’s win more “legitimate” in the eyes of the doubters? Or if Booth could have sought successfully for redress for “average points” for that race, would he have still come in second or would he have won? Would his “average points (if successful) have been calculated without throw a ways or with them?

I believce average-points is calculated on ALL race results.

I should have put in a few more smilies <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Folks,
I think Darryl has hit the nail on the head.

You play the game in accordance with the rules set out before the game starts.

The last race of the F18 Worlds was a great race to watch.
Sitting up on the dunes with music over the loud speakers with a running commentary of the race, the palyers strategies and tactics as the game unfolds.

That is how we sould be marketing this sport.

Both Booth and Bundock are the best of the best and both were well aware of the stakes and the rules.

These guys, gettings into their match race for the series, openned up the last race for the other top performers. We had two really exciting races unfold before us.

Had Bundy done anything else,he would have been neglegant. Had Booth got the jump at the start I would have expected nothing less, (than playing the rules to his advantage).

This is the game and the rules dictate how the game
should be played.

From my perspective no matter who won, the series final played out to a great climax to a testing series.

Congratulations to the dominant players in the game.

Mitch Booth and Darren Bundolck.

Regards,
Phill

Maybe we do need to do away with the throwout?

That would mean that John would still be the rightful winner in your example because with the exception for the single throw-out he finished ahead of you more consistantly then you did. Otherwise he can never have less points overall after the throw-out.

In fact not having the throwout would actually favour the lesser skilled crew. A noticeable superior crews race can then be wrecked by a single hick-up (outlier) that he can sustain for any number of reasons that are outside of his controll or further unrelated to his skills.

Example :

Crew 1 does : 1st , 1st, 1st, 1st and 10th because some dummy tacks on the startline and pins of portion of the fleet between "a rock and a hard place"

crew 2 does : 3rd 3rd 3rd 3rd and 1st. as this crew was starting down the line in the last race and missed the pile up.

Now you are saying that crew 2 is the rightfull winner because he sailed more consistantly ?


And this example also explains why sailing has rules like this while track events don't. That is because at a track event you get your own lane or you are the only one on the pitch. Even in car racing your get your own starting position with well defined spacing or right of way. With sailing you don't have any of these rules. Pretty much the start is a brawl and you are criscrossing eachothers bows and sterns by definition and not by chance. Sailing in general is a much more open game then any motor(cross) event or other sports event like athletics.

Wouter

Seems a lot of the problems caused by a tied score situation such as Wouter described above, would be eliminated by only awarding 3/4 point for a first instead of one point. Didn't they used to do that at some events or was that done away with years ago? That way a 1st and a 3rd would out score two seconds. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Absolutely the boat with the 3,3,3,1 should win. They
sailed more consistantly. Staying out of the pileups
is also a skill, of sorts, it's not purely luck.
A boat with three bullits going into the last race
should not be getting themselves into a pileup.
Why should they be rewarded for bad strategy?

They don't give mulligans in stock car
racing, either, Yet many cars are taken out
by others going out of control.

That is interesting, because I would have thought that the reason for starting to have throwouts would be to keep the less experienced (or less serious and committed) sailors from becoming discouraged and dropping out because of a bad race or an equipment breakdown. Sort of like a branch to cling to when you are sinking in quicksand.

So I guess I must be wrong about my original assumption about why throwouts (discards) started in the first place.

I still would love to see the discussions on this topic that must have been had within IYRU back when. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

OK, How about we score it like Figure Skating, throw out both one low AND one high score? After all, the high score might have been due to pure luck, a flyer to the corner, lucky wind shift, etc. while the other faster guys went to the wrong side of the course.

Certainly it would favour consistency much more than just dropping races off the bottom. I like it.

IMO, throw outs serve more than one purpose....

1, they allow you to get back into a series if you have a breakdown
2, they allow you to get back into a series if someone fouls you and you drop down the order as a result - THIS DOES AND WILL HAPPEN, even after turns from the fouling boat, you end up worse, and it is almost impossible to get redress every time.
3, they allow you to get back into a series if you make a mistake

4, they allow you to push the start harder, one OCS is not the end of your series
5, they allow you to push the boat harder, one swim is not the end of your series


now the 64,000 dollar question is do "we" want to discourage 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 or not ?

1, is probably your fault
2, is probably NOT your fault
3, is your fault
4, is the way you approach the regatta
5, is the way you approach the regatta

now there is more to consider,

4 and 5 will effect the whole way you and other competitors sail the race series, do we want to discorage the competion that is the start?, IMO removing throw-outs will change the start as people will be far more worried about fouling or being over than pushing for a good start. Throw outs also help the "motiation" of the fleet as a whole. Consider a no throw regatta where 3 of the top 10 boats in a competitve fleet like the F18 get bad results, they now CANNOT win - given these people are usually sailing a number of different boats, they might just pack up and go home to sail their Tornado instead, is this something that sould be encouraged?