Rolf
to respond to yr questions:
1) the Javelin 16 is still on production (see BIMARE web page: www.bimare.net);
2) the quotation provided is valid;
3) the Javelin 16 is basically an unirig F16 (the sloop version is not offered).
It does not comply with with the F16 rule for:
1) its mast height (9,00 m instead of 8,50 m);
2) its gennaker (hooter) whose SMG is < 75% SF.
Other measurements are not at F16 HP limit:
for istance width is 2,25 m and mast and mainsail surface is 14,00 sq (instead of respectively 2,50 m and 15,00 sq).
In overall I would say that the Javelin 16 is better suited for solo sailing than a full compliant F16 HP (the furling gennaker makes life much easier).
As a consequence it should be much faster close to the wind al least until its "Code 0" can be unfurled.

And the website specifies that the boat is underweight for F16 sailing. However of a few Bims that I've seen the measurement data from, the weight is F16 compliant. Saying it weights such and such and actually being that are two seperate things in most beach cat classes.

With regard to speed comparisons, well, we just don't have much real life data. The only two times the Bim 16's and F16's met on the water was in 2001 in the USA and in 2005 in the Netherlands.

The first was a tie and the F16 was a standard Taipan 4.9 with an aftermarket spinnaker. Since then the sail area of the F16 has been increased and the shape has been much change. Also the standard Taipan is more narrow then a full F16. Mark Schneider sailed the Bim and Kirt Simmons sailed the Taipan. I think Mark won that match.

In 2005 we say a doublehanded Stealth F16 match up to a doublehanded Bim 16 and the Stealth F16 crew won that.

I have no data at all involving the javelin 16 design, only the Bim 16 predecessor.

Personally I feel that the larger width, larger mainsail area, shorter mast and not having a rolled-up hooter in front will favour the singlehanded F16 over the Javelin 16, especially when going upwind. But then again this is just my personal feeling as I have never seen the javelin 16 race an F16 directly (or any other boat for that matter). Personally I don't have any issues with the gennaker on the F16.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that Javelin 16 hooter not smaller in area then the F16 spi as well ? I thought it was something like 13 to 15 sq. mtr. against the 17.5 sq.mtr of the F16

Wouter

Wouter
actually the Javelin 16 has nothing in common with the Bim 16.
The hulls are radically different:
they are not only inspired to the wave percing concept, but also are much higher and "fatter".
With regard to the weight the latest version is indicated at 110 Kg.
The hooter is in the 13-15 sqm range as you stated

Nice I’d love to try one. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> The furling hooter is an interesting concept and easier to deploy then a spi. Higher aspect and less beam then the
f16 (closer to A-cat) but why did they go with only 14,00 sq of mainsail instead of 15,00 (in which case it would perhaps be faster then the F16 at the same price)?

The bottom line is that the cat sailors with their 400# boats have exactly what they want and deserve. The real truth comes out by what you open and close your wallet for. There is no desire for more performance; they tie the hands of anyone who wants to build a better performing boat with a laundry list of rules that limit boat design/construction to the status quo. Claiming that the rules are in place to make racing more “fair”. In reality it is fear driven…the fear that the 400# behemoth they bought will be rendered obsolete by some mythical space age miracle design …you know the one they always talk about ruining cat sailing by using Kevlar, or Carbon or anything other than the same old low tech stuff that has been around since the original Hobie 14.

The manufactures are more than happy to give you a cheaper built, heavier boat for the same money if that’s what you want....In the 400# boat climate there is no incentive for them to improve the product. It has been said that “One gets what one puts up with”

I think it will play out like the Israelites in the Old testament when their spies came back saying there were Giants in the land that God had promised them…and they were made to walk around in the desert for 40 years until that particular generation with no vision for the future died off …and a new generation with some faith and enthusiasm rose to leadership.

It will be interesting to see what will happen in 10 years of the classes that now exist.
I will be quite surprised if the foward thinking F-16 class… that is the tormented red headed stepchild of today… doesn’t grow to dominate the Cat sailing scene a decade from now…and all the new sailors will be sitting around laughing at the idea that their Parents/Grandparents put themselves thru hell fighting a 400# beach cat on and off the water…when it could have been built 80 to 100lbs lighter, except for their stubborn insistence to adhere to an arbitrary weight.

Regards,
Bob

Hey Bob, I kinda take offense, there. I bought a boat in a class where there is really good competition and some great people. I don't know your situation, but I frequently move my F18 around by myself - and I'm not a big guy.

Your point about the F16 class growing may be on target, and I can guarantee that if the racing is there someday, then I will be, too. Right now I have a gorgeous, extremely well-made boat that gets me class racing wherever I go. Just as you say, that is exactly what I want and deserve - but I don't say that with a sneer as you seem to. I've been abstaining from posting, but this thread has gotten absurd.

You know this is a bunch of bs. yes sure weight is related to cost but the f18 weight was deliberately designed with the thought of keeping the cost of the boats down, and also so that anyone could home build one if they wanted to. If f18s were prepreg carbon with carbon masts bla bla bla then the cost would be a lot higher and there would be a hell of a lot less sailors in the class. The f18s of today could probably shed 50 lbs easily enough but why wreck the class? The f16 class has the opportunity to bring a lighter boat in and good for them..nothing wrong with that, but the f18 class weight was formed around the thinking of the day. the NEXT big thing (HT, M20, eagle 20?) can reduce their class weight whatever to they think the masses can afford. 400lb beach cats really aren't a problem to move around with 2 people who are in shape. Hell I was launching and retrieving my Nacra 6.0 (420lbs) by myself up a soft sand beach. not easy but I only had to go 20 feet. So don't blame the manufacturers.

I poked around JW's boat at Perf Midwinters and it is clearly a very well made boat... very solid.
My point in posting this to start with is just what is behind the reasoning for modern boats to weigh so much. I did not intend to try to diminish any other boats or classes (although the gloves come off when someone starts throwing generalizations about the HT around).
My friend and I chose the HT because it was light and easy to deal with. He can sail with his kids and not have to worry too much about righting it, getting it into the water off the beach and out of the water onto the beach. It would have been nice if there were more boats in that "class" to race against. If the min weight in the F18 class were 75lbs lighter then I think it would have been a no brainer and then we would have a better time racing.
(someone will bring up the F16 issue, but there just aren't any reasonably priced used F16s around.. not many used F18s in my price range around either I guess).

In the end, if you have someone to help you move the baot around the lifting can be done and in truth I am sure it would be more fun racing against boats exaclty like mine than in open class where DPNs are taken into account and we know how goofy that can get. Obviously the F18 class is very popular but maybe could benefit from switching to diet coke.

Like it or not the F18 class is stuck with the 400lb boats. Still we've seen some developments in the platform which an F18L class could benefit from… <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Here here.... Very well written John. To Bob and anybody else who doesn't like F18 - No problems, I hope you enjoy whatever you are sailing and wish you all well. All I ask is please don't [censored] can the class in the process.

FWIW I'm more than happy with my F18. Moving it about is no issue (I'm no huge guy either) and we have a wide range of manufacturers who build very competitive boats. F16 looks to be filling a different place in the market and I wish them great success

Tiger Mike

John I did not set out to offend you or anyone else. Was anything I said false? Don’t the proponents of the 400# boats have exactly what they want? Don’t they use there wallets to support the type of boat they want? In effect keeping the industry in a fixed position as to boat weight in some of the most popular classes? Is not a frequent topic of discussion keeping boat design static so the resale value is not lost? Is there not always someone who brings up the point that if exotic materials are introduced, cat sailing will escalate into an arms race with “who ever has the most money wins”?

John my statement about what they (you) want and deserve was not said with a sneer but with frustration. A frustration that stems from the fact that I love building & rebuilding boats as much as I love using them. My passion is to see boat design pushed to greater and greater heights, not stagnate. I have worked in the boat building industry and know what the materials cost and the labor expertise necessary to make quality composite structures from surfboards and sailboards to 105' Multi Million dollar yachts.

I am tired of people blowing smoke up our butt. Some one states some BS about boat building and everyone jumps on board and repeats it over and over until it is accepted as undisputed fact.

Several years ago I did a cost breakdown for a 16' cat (and posted it on the old forum) as to what the material cost difference would be between e-glass, S- glass, Kevlar and Carbon...it's not as much as what people try to make it out to be. If you are already making a quality boat out of vacuum bagged e-glass/Cross linked PVC foam core/vinyl ester resin, the only difference is going to be the increased cost of the fabric itself, which is a relatively small part of the overall cost of a sail boat. In fact you will have a minor resin savings by being able to use less and/or lighter weight fabrics.

The mold is not going to change, the mold prep is not going to change, the gel coat is not going to change, the peel ply is not going to change, the bleeder cloth is not going to change, and the polyethylene film is not going to change. The labor cutting of the fabric is not going to appreciably increase (Kevlar will require electric shears) ...in fact you will be able to use lighter weight cloth in S-glass, Kevlar or Carbon and achieve the same physical properties. If a worker can wet out e-glass they can wet out s-glass/kevlar/carbon just the same, it’s not some mystical experience.

Companies all over the world have proven they are capable of building lighter boats, it is illogical to build something heavier than it has to be for no reason, other than “that’s the way we have always done it”.

As Sir Issac Newton was quoted as saying “I can calculate the motions of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people”

Regards,
Bob

Why would you guys not love your boats..they are 20K plus. They are brand new etc. They are bloody groovy. It is a given though that the weight will become a factor. The manufactures WILL push for a rule change when THEY want it and can see a big turnover of boats.
For beach sailors that will be a boon as the F18 will make a great beach boat, tough and no nonsense. That is the way of things, evolution.
I don't think people are knocking the boats, just the manufacturers who are not delivering a lighter product when that would be competitive for longer.

Yes - the only reason I responded was because you were wrong on a few points:

I do, in fact, want performance and I got it.

I have not "tied the hands" of development by my choice of class - development is happily rolling right along, even within the F18 class. Rule changes and designs that enhance performance or safety come out all the time in the F18 class - witness wing masts, full-batten jibs, etc.

I am not driven by fear to try somehow to limit development. Nor am I stubborn and without vision, faith or enthusiasm, nor am I afraid of giants or deserts. Spiders, though... they freak me out.

Rail aginst whatever you want - I do all the time. But try not to make it personal. Your post and others in this thread seem to fault a specific population of sailors with hobbling the industry by being close-minded flat-earthers, while others who have seen the light struggle valiantly to keep from drowning in a sea of poorly built barges of steel and stone. Personally, I looked at where things stood in the US two years ago and decided that F18 would see significant growth and I wanted to ride that wave. I haven't done the math on the exhange rate between USD and New Zealand, Warbird, but it cost me far less that $20k to get a new boat in an exciting class. After 10 months on this boat, I have zero regrets.

I have raced F16s and F18s among many other boats. Racing an F16 with a light weight crew is cool and it is light enough for you to move around. However an F16 with a heavy crew weight is not a lot of fun.

On the flip side, two grown adults can easily move an F18 around also and are very comfortable sailing it.

Different markets guys.......

I am not loyal to any class and race what I enjoy. The F16 is a cool boat, as with many other boats such as the Tornado. I could have found myself a light crew and raced F16s but against who. The F18 gave me the fleet racing which is what I wanted.

I am not an expert in the F18 class, however from what I have seen, something that made the F18 the success it is today are all the volunteers, international and local class founders that put in endless hours of work to get the class up and running and keeping it running. They were also assisted by several large catamaran manufactures that put in a lot of work assisting with the creation of the class, marketing the products, conforming to a formula, building the boats to meet levels of demand and distributing around the world.

If the F16 class is to get right off the ground, it will need the support of some of the large cat manufactures to work in the same way as they have with the F18 class. It will be tough though as racing cats are a very small market and the F18 has already snapped up large numbers of members.

Back to the weight issue. The F18 class is what it is and enjoys great racing being one of the most successful sailing classes around at present. Yes the boats can be built much lighter now, but at what cost will implementing it have on the class???? Why jeopardise what the class has worked so hard in achieving. Surely a lighter boat may be a little easier to man handle on land, however you barely notice it with good rollers. On the water, it will make very little difference in speed and the feel of the boat. Is it really worth it.

Lastly, all those who bitch about the weight of the boats…… Who has actually sailed them. I would imagine very few. Before I joined the class, I looked unfavourably at their 180 kg, however after sailing them, it was a non issue. What I did get was some of the best racing I have ever had.

John,

on a totally wild tangent: You mention fully battened jibs as a performance enhancement. Why are fully battened jibs better than partially battened jibs? Full battens make the sail more stable shape wise, but how do you alter shape on the jib to changing conditions with a fully battened jib? Besides, I know firsthand how much work finding the right battens can be. I am not certain if fully battened jibs are faster over the complete windrange now that we have selftackers on most performance boats.
Sorry for the rhetoric and for jumping on your argument with both feet in what is a totally different discussion.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> It's just me having a pet theory that fully battened jibs vs partially battened jibs have not been thoroughly tested.

I've raced both F18's and F16's. Personally I see no conflict between these classes or even between the heavy weights and lightweight. I look at it more as complementary classes. Designs that will suit sailors of different opinion. I will personally never own a F18 but that doesn't mean that they don't have a good thing going on.

And thankfully for people like myselfs an equal performant lightweight alternative is available. Something that the BIG boat builders would never have offered when left to their own devices. In that sense Bon is completely right.

So maybe you are both right. But that is beside the point now as both options are now available.

Wouter

"Spiders, though... they freak me out."
Progress at last... see John we finaly found something we can agree about...LOL

Regards,
Bob

Hi All

I read there is some sort of deal struck between AHPC and Jim Boyer to have the new taipan hulls built in Asia, then brought in from there.

The moulds will leave Australia soon, and the first orders have been placed with hulls expected to arrive back here in, I think it was September.

Regards

Where is the source of that statement ?

Wouter

The source of that statement is the Taipan and Capricorn Association of Australia's current newsletter.

This issue was spoken about at the TCAA AGM, which I wasn't at, however its seems the deal is done.