| Kickup T foil rudder #106508 05/09/07 06:43 AM 05/09/07 06:43 AM |
Joined: Aug 2002 Posts: 545 Brighton, UK grob OP
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Posts: 545 Brighton, UK | What do people think of this kickup T foil rudder setup? ![[Linked Image]](http://4hulls.googlepages.com/kickup1.jpg) The system is very simple. The T-foil is attached to the bottom of the main rudder blade, and is allowed to pivot freely. Referring to the sectioned plot below, the T-foil is also attached to the rudder box via a line that runs through the rudder blade. When the rudder blade is in the vertical deployed position the line pulls the T-foil tight against the bottom of the rudder blade holding it in a horizontal sailing position. When the rudder blade is released to swing to the horizontal position the T-foil is also automatically released. ![[Linked Image]](http://4hulls.googlepages.com/kickup2.gif) Although this is currently shown on a Dotan stock (as this is what I use) it can be retrofitted to any existing kickup rudder system. Gareth | | | Re: Kickup T foil rudder
[Re: grob]
#106509 05/09/07 07:34 AM 05/09/07 07:34 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter
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Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe | Not enough distance difference as a result of the pivoting to pull the T-foil in tight.
The radius from the fullcrum to the point where the line enteres the rudder boards is too short.
Maybe have a pully on the stern and a clear on the rearbeam so the skipper can activate and deactivate the T-foil ? (an idea I had for the F12) But still have the problem of the line stretching resulting is a flapping T-foil possibly damaging the rudder board itself.
Wouter
Last edited by Wouter; 05/09/07 07:37 AM.
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
| | | Re: Kickup T foil rudder
[Re: grob]
#106510 05/09/07 07:46 AM 05/09/07 07:46 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | Interesting thought. I would first be concerned about flutter of the foil if it kicks up while the boat is moving at any decent speed...that is, unless you built in some imbalance stability into the foil - but that would result in undesirable drag during normal attitude. I know first hand that control surface flutter can be violent and result in the death of a model airplane!
The geometry between the pivots and the line seems to be a bit off - but that might actually take care of the potential for flutter if it can be arranged put the foil at a slight bit of a "down plane" attitude when it is released.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Kickup T foil rudder
[Re: Jake]
#106511 05/09/07 08:04 AM 05/09/07 08:04 AM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | Why not just improve the lifting mechanisim on the present casette type T foil rudders? Personaly I like the idea of only having half the rudder, or less, down when coming in to or departing the beach. You will still have a lighter helm than with a kicked up rudder, which can be hard to steer in big wind and waves. And it would seem the casette type system would be lighter, less moving parts to break, etc.
Could someone who uses the present T foil rudders please post a close up picture of the headstock and the rudder in both the up and down possition, and tell us how it works? Thanks.
Last edited by Timbo; 05/09/07 08:07 AM.
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: Kickup T foil rudder
[Re: grob]
#106515 05/09/07 08:48 AM 05/09/07 08:48 AM |
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 99 Chicago, IL Krisu13
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Posts: 99 Chicago, IL | If you are not going to do any backward sailing - just eliminate the line going through rudder blade.
I20
| | | Re: Kickup T foil rudder
[Re: Special_Treat_P182]
#106516 05/09/07 08:55 AM 05/09/07 08:55 AM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | The guys who have them like them, I think the Stealth (F16 type) has them, they say they really smooth out the ride and keep you from nose diving in a windy gibe. The Jurry is still out on wether they are "faster" or not, but swimming is slow.
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: Kickup T foil rudder
[Re: Timbo]
#106517 05/09/07 08:55 AM 05/09/07 08:55 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | Why not just improve the lifting mechanisim on the present casette type T foil rudders? Personaly I like the idea of only having half the rudder, or less, down when coming in to or departing the beach. You will still have a lighter helm than with a kicked up rudder, which can be hard to steer in big wind and waves. And it would seem the casette type system would be lighter, less moving parts to break, etc.
Could someone who uses the present T foil rudders please post a close up picture of the headstock and the rudder in both the up and down possition, and tell us how it works? Thanks. I hadn't thought of that - boy that would be really nice.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Kickup T foil rudder
[Re: Jalani]
#106519 05/09/07 09:15 AM 05/09/07 09:15 AM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | Thanks for the picture John, now, tell us about the ride with the T foils. (I know this was covered a year or so ago, any updates?)
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: Kickup T foil rudder
[Re: Timbo]
#106520 05/09/07 09:20 AM 05/09/07 09:20 AM |
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,382 Essex, UK Jalani
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Posts: 1,382 Essex, UK | The ride has been discussed at length, as you say, having sailed with them, I couldn't now imagine sailing without them! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Only update is the new Stealth (2006/7) T-foils are a fantastic improvement on the older ones. Small, lighter, stronger and much better engineered. Less drag IMO, but just as effective as the older, larger foils. John_P has done a really good job!
John Alani ___________ Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538 | | | Re: Kickup T foil rudder
[Re: Jalani]
#106521 05/09/07 09:35 AM 05/09/07 09:35 AM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | If I wanted to buy a pair to put on a US Blade, what would that cost, for the new ones? Rudders, heads, tillers and mounts?
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: Kickup T foil rudder
[Re: Timbo]
#106522 05/09/07 11:45 AM 05/09/07 11:45 AM |
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,382 Essex, UK Jalani
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Posts: 1,382 Essex, UK | Your best bet Tim would be to cantact John Pierce - either PM him (john p) or through the website: http://www.stealthmarine.co.uk
John Alani ___________ Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538 | | | Re: Kickup T foil rudder
[Re: Laruffa]
#106526 05/10/07 07:28 AM 05/10/07 07:28 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | Hi everyone, Would like to ask you a question, after sailing 49ers I always ask the question why not!! rudders in a box system?? they have some good points 1)when you need to sail into or out of a beach with any seaway they would work well if you could just left them up to miss the bottom and still steer! 2)packing the boat for transport all you need to do is take them out and pack them into a bag like the centre boards! 3) they would never kick up under load or sailing in waters with things like jellyfish! 4)if anything fouled them like seawead you could still steer while lifting them free! 5)in conditions like high winds with flat waters you could lift them to reduce drag?? [color:"red"] [/color] disadvantages? 1)hitting a object or the bottom in shallow waters?? BUT would it be cover by the centre boards???? whats your thoughts!!!! Love allways MarkXX <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I too like the idea of a cassette style rudder. Big jellies are not usually a risk to the structure of the boat but things like stumps or perhaps a rock outcropping might be. However, you could still have some sort of breakaway "fuse" at the gudgeon in the event you really did hit something hard.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Kickup T foil rudder
[Re: grob]
#106527 05/10/07 09:08 AM 05/10/07 09:08 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 1,449 phill
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Posts: 1,449 | Gareth, Intersting concept. Obviously it would need some work to refine. Got me thinking could even replace the line with thin flat rod down the centre of the rudder. When building the rudder a slot could be made down the centre to accomodate the rod. Now if you can control the rod from the top you would also have the ability to adjust the angle of the T foil while sailing.
Regards, Phill
I know that the voices in my head aint real, but they have some pretty good ideas. There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!
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