I'll play:
I don't care about the arguement of whether global warming exists or not. What I am not a fan of is World War 3 with China/India/Russia because we all use so much petroleum. That is where this is all heading. If the concept of "global warming" gets people to use less energy then good.

There are two sides of this argument but I don't think anyone disagrees that things are warming up a bit.

Side #1: Warming is due to man's influences on the atmosphere.

Side #2: No, it's not.

Now, if Side #2 was correct, wouldn't they really support their argument by showing exactly WHY the change is happening? Through all this debate, I've only seen Side #2 try to poke holes in Side #1's data and while I've heard other theories as to why we're warming, I've never heard Side #2 explicitly offer up any other cause.

You guys make me want to kill some more kittens...

again...

I certainly agree with being good stewards of the environment. I do many things in my daily life to conserve as much of our resources as possible. Although, I do agree there is SLIGHT warming trend in progress I do not neccessarily believe that trend is a direct result of the human hand. I think if it was researched thouroughly, one would be unable to find undeniable proof from the myriad of studies that climate change is caused by man. This does not mean I want us to stand back and do nothing. I believe we should continuously search for ways to conserve our resources and help the environment, but the earth is constantly changing and has been through numerous climate shifts long before humans could possibly have even been a factor.

Just my 0.02 worth

If you are REALLY hell bent on doing your part to protect the enviroment, kill yourself. Think of all the resources you will have been responsible for the consumption of. Heck take out some others while your at it. Over population is at the heart of the problem. Besides, history loves martyrs

Oh Karl, You're just a penny-ante right winger. I want the big-dog that started this thread up again to come out and play. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



I want to know exactly what the scam is. How am I being scammed? What am I losing? And arguments stating why I should listen to the above statement. That's it. Easy.



No cut and paste please.

Prince of Darkness repents.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/04/11/gingrich_drops_skepticism_on_global_warming/

Follow the money in carbon credits if you have not figured out the scam yet.

Also reason for warming is a star, we call the sun. "NASA notes Mars warming" but you all knew that too. Still doesn't matter.

I guess you can fool, most of the people most of the time. I will sell you carbon credits, I also have a good deal on some bridges.

Jake, what I find funny is that we all agree that the climate is changing.

Wether it is the fault of people or just a natrual cycle of the earth is what seems to be the point of contention.

Honestly it does not matter who is to blame or not to blame. We have to live with it and adapt to make it survivable in the long run. It's kind of like pointing at the killer meteor coming and saying it's not my fault must be your fault, or it's nobody fault so why should I care?

I think our children and our children's children will find out if we were wrong or right. It may be nothing but a bump in the global climate cycle that does little to effect human life, maybe it is more than that. I, for one, would like to think we are acting for the worst case senario. In the end placing the blame may help clear your concience but it does nothing to address the problem.

P.S. paying for carbon credits is a a scam. I'm rich so I can pay to do something I preach against you doing. Right. that makes sense.

It's not a monetary problem so it's not a monetary argument. The choice is to act or to not act. It has nothing to do with who or what is responsible. Let's sue the universe!

Global Climate Change is normal. Although man has little effect on change compared to natural events, we should all strive to limit our impact. However, we should not jump into programs that will increase our taxes and squander our precious resources to correct "Global Warming".

Caleb Tarleton

Alright, That's plenty of time for the OG poster to respond. The Dittohead has left the building. It's no fun without some argument.

Here's who was blamed in the first post for perpetuating the 'myth of global warming:



So too often these guys regurgitate Rush or some right wing politician and don't follow up their statement with sound argument. Because they simply don't know the facts.

Case in point: Brogger comes out with some anti-environmental one liner and leaves. Theres no substance behind that. Why should I listen to some construction guy (" Bring on the warm winters. I've never had my truck not start because it was too warm") argue about scientific data regarding climate change. He probably doesn't understand the scientific principles that makes the fuel in his truck ignite without sparkplugs.

The vast majority of people in my field studying climate change agree that humans are probably causing it. Vast majority! These are people that have no hidden agenda, they just collect data, and analyze trends.



So, what if the vast majority of these scientists are wrong and humans aren't influencing the climate to change?

*Then I am saving a ton of money on fuel costs because I bought a fuel efficient vehicle. This in turn reduces our dependence on the middleast, an added bonus.

* I am saving a ton of money on my power bill due to the fact I have solar on my roof. I just broke even this year on the panel install. Running your meter backwards is true freedom. I'm surprised you right-winger, anti-ecos aren't more into solar just for the freedom aspect of it. Get off the government teet man.

* I do things in my daily life to reduce my personal need for resources, which often save me more money.

I'm not saying I'm perfect or anything like that. I'm just saying. I'm looking for how I've been scammed by global warming as stated in the OG post.

I save massive amounts of money by living a little more conscious to the fact that there may be an issue with the climate. Is that the scam? I'm saving money? Good scam.



A recap:

The OG post talked smack on a bunch of different people, "the Democratic Political Party, the Governor of California, school teachers" and used inflammatory language like "dastardly scientists", "environmental whacko type", and "environmental extremists".

I wonder what the motives for posting this was? Sounds like maybe a poor nights sleep, too much Rush Limbaugh, maybe just got angry at the world and had to post, hates hippies? Who knows?

Great, now back it up. And what happened? Nothing.

As far as I'm concerned we have seen your mettle and motives. It was just a conservative radio regurgitation with no strength behind it and this thread is over.

****OFFICIAL END OF THREAD****

The argument that man has had little impact on climate change might be valid historically, but there is a major flaw in this argument: Man has not started burning fossil fuels at a significant and exponentially increasing rate until the second half of the 20th century, so any man made change in climate cannot have become apparent until now. Going back to the historical record to illustrate that man does not have an impact on climate is thus no more than a anecdotal observation, and has no bearing on the current situation, where a large majority of the scientific community agrees that the burning of fossil fuels has a definite impact on climate.

If you are a scientist in bed with the oil companies, can you dispense with the KY Jelly ?

Lay some links of the solar panel on us that paid for itself in a year and spins the meter backwards. Your house must be as big as Al Gores to get that much punch <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I saw NASA issued a report that Mars has warmed 1/2 degree since the 1970's. Kind of interesting, not much man made climate change on Mars. I wonder what Al Gore has to say about that?

Ding, you here?? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

He said it was paid off THIS year, not in a year...
It's also very feasable that it will run the meter backwards during times of low useage/sunny days.

Chris, I like the way you think! It doesn't help to deny that there is warming happening, and it sure is helpful if we take responsibility for our actions! The whole carbon credits thing just postpones dealing with it. Soulcat, Congrats on the solar panel! Even Rick and the others that oppose our view, should respect the use of viable alternate technology! Hell if nothing else it saves a little more oil for them! I've heard that in Massachusetts there is technology to provide solar hot water heaters for under $4,000.

Knowing efficiencies of the commercially available solar panels are quite low, and other factors such as angle of the sun affect performance, figured soulcat must have some new tech panels (equate cutting edge silicon and probably high dollar). I missed the 'this year' and not in one year. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

At ~0.07/kWh energy costs here it's hard to justify solar, and we're not quite far enough South (how's the solar incidence angle in the sunny Pacific NW?)

The benefits of alternative power are obvious, can they evolve quicj enough? They can't build wind farms fast enough to stay ahead of the demand. Coal fired power plants (worldwide) will make the emissions of a few Hummer's pale by comparison. Major problem, USA and China are sitting on unlimited (200-300 yr) supplies of coal and it's cheap.