If everybody else agrees on only these four limits then I'm out of the project.

Mostly because I think it is going to fail that way and I'm not wasting my time on that. Sorry.

Actually this whole proces does remind me of that time 8 months ago, exactly the same discussions. I made room for somebody else to create this "wide open class" and nobody stepped up. The end result the project fall flat on its face. I revived it, as I have done several times by now, and we just fall in the same trap again.

I hope it fairs alot better this time if the rest decides to keep the rules maximally open. First point on the agenda is to find a new project leader, I'll be watching from the sidelines. If it falls down again then I'm going to step one last time and decided things arbitrarily. Then it will be an OD class along the lines I presented earlier.

So everybody, consider this your last shot to make something of the F12 that you feel is right. I will step aside and allow you all to make your best swing at it.

I will of course keep presenting updates on my design on this forum, there maybe something there worth stealing.

Wouter

Call me when you are serious about doing something like that. For years now I've been saying to friend that I would like to wander about the Swedisch or Finnish Archipelo on a sail boat.

Wouter

I have been serious on that for a while. It's a little bit cold right now, but lets say from May on you name the date.

Wow, thanks, I hope that thought that offer through because I may very well take you up on it.

For may 2008 I'm organising a little wandering-about trip on sail boats here in the Netherlands with 20 people already listed, so I don't expect that I can get away from my normal life during the spring time, but after that ...

I will also send you a private mail concerning this.

Wouter

Wouter, please take this as a friendly observation….

“If everybody else agrees on only these four limits then I'm out of the project.”

That sounds awful lot like “If I can’t make the rules, I am going to take my ball and go home”.

Let the project go forward with just length and weight limits. If your design and approach is superior it will prevail.

While you undoubtedly have the greatest presence here on the forum (7000+ posts), it is obvious that the wheels have been turning behind the scenes on a number of fronts. To be honest, you would have to admit this recent resurgence of interest in the F-12 has a lot to do with RG’s ability to expressed his (and others interested parties) design ideas through high quality 3D Computer Modeling. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words. You can write a text book worth of detailed description on the F-12 and not motivate a single person to act…but put a life like rendering in front of them and the ideas take on new life.

No one is trying to limit your design options, why do you feel the need to limit theirs?


If I remember correctly, you have, on more than one occasion, stated that you had neither the time nor the financial resources to pursue the construction of a proto type based on your ideas any time in the near future…that your time was consumed at work and other things you were involved in…no one faults you for that…Now there seems to be at least two other designers that do have the time and resources to proto type. Work with them, don’t them tie up with rules that may very well put some of the most creative options out of their reach. So you don’t agree with everything that is being proposed… if they are willing to put up their time and money to invest in this promising idea, why would anyone who truly wants the concept to succeed put barriers in their way?

It sounds like the cow that laid in the hay. It didn’t want to eat the hay…but it wouldn’t let any of the other cows to eat it either”

Don’t lay in the hay…LOL…

Best regards,
Bob

Wouter, I seriously hope you don't walk away, and no matter what you end up doing, I'm still going to use your mast and brace ideas as one of the options on what I produce cause they are "Good" ideas.
RG

Aww screw it...I'm building one of these <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Puddle Duck Racer <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Bring your bat and ball back Wouter, behind the scenes things are happening they might not be exactly your boats being built but it may have your ideas. We need every kid out there on a cat and its going to take all shapes and sizes of cats to get them out of dinghys. Advanced heavy kids used to a dinghy with kite need exciting good looking cats that will tip if they get it wrong ( thats the excitement and fear ). New to sailing kids need a stable reassuring platform so the kid and theyre parents dont have too much excitement. Its just my opinion but the time to get super fussy and level the playing field is at F14 etc at the moment we will have 7 yr olds racing 14yr olds they just wanna have fun.

I see this project as serious endeavour and that means achieving results. That also means that sometimes harsh decisions have to be made. This is nothing personal against anyone, just being realistic.

I can honestly say that I'm not the person to pull this project if it is decided by the group that that only 2 to 4 general rules will be layed down for the class. I have indeed no clear idea of how to make that work and as a result I won't be the right guy for the job. And indeed I gladly step aside to allow somebody else who can make this work take the lead.

So indeed this is not a “If I can’t make the rules, I am going to take my ball and go home” as I'm only vacating the team leader role and leaving the ball (and bat) on the court so another guy can take a shot at making it work.

Actually, I'm setting you all free.

The only thing one of you needs to do now is show us all how to swing that ball out of the court.

Wouter

I was so taken by the idea of sailing the archipelo that I want off on a tangent with respect to the F12 design. I used the same basic F12 platform (Deep V-ed hull) and the bottom section of the mast and its supports, as that is both simple, robust and cheap, and just changed the rig to a gaff or lugger sail.

To my surprise the specs work out really well. There is hardly any difference between these extremely simple and cheap sails and the fully battened class 5 sails. Pressure points, sail area's are all as good as the same. Don't even need to modify the bottom section of the mast at all. Just have to make a small insert that slides in its top and holds the halyard blocks. These rigs can then even be fully (de)rigged while on the water (safety), including lowering the mast itself. Put a peddle on board and you can peddle these craft very well too. I'm thinking about each skipper sitting on opposite hulls of the same craft with the second craft behind in tow. I already know that cats are very easy to peddle at decent speeds. Have done it a few times. Once wind picks up one sailor switches back to his own boat and both skippers raise their masts and sails and continue to trip under sail.

I know this will work very well while using a gaff or lugger rig as I've been doing the same on Valk sail boats for years. Just ask Phill Brander, I'm sure he'll still remember how we negociated the low bridges when sailing the Valks. You would sail right up to the bridge and drop the whole rig and mast in 30 seconds, then let the momentum push the boat through under the bridge and then on the other side you would push up the mast and sails in again 30 seconds and continue sailing.

Deck tent over the boom and voila you're camping. Could even do that on the water in a shelted bay when using a small anchor.

Of course we loose some performance with these gaff and lugger rigs but one a travel trip like this that is not much of a problem, I'm happy to sail at 9 knots instead of 11 knots upwind if that saves me a bundle of money and allowing me to make this trip through the archipelo ! Best of these sails is how easy and cheap they are and repaired.

WOW !

I'm still impressed at how easy my basic F12 was adjusted to the different requirements of an archipelo trip.

Gato, what a great idea to use a cat like the F12 for this. I'm sure if you start taking kids along that they will consider it a right adventure. Makes me feel as exited as a kid as well.

Wouter

Gato, I guess you are referring to the islands between Turku and Aland.

Here some maps if anybody is interested to find out what we're talking about :

http://www.visitfinland.com/ima/main/maps/finland_southern_finland_en.pdf

Indeed there are 1000's of them. You can see that more clearly using Google map and then zooming out and zooming in on southern Finland :

http://maps.google.nl/maps?utm_campaign=...p;utm_term=maps

Wouter

I'll give it a week to someone to step forward.

If nobody does then I'll decide to hold a design competition and we'll see then what we can all come up with. I hope to interest RG and others like Grob to produce equally classy 3-D pics and drag simulations of all proposed designs so that all are equal in presentation. We can then move to have the "Battle Royale" and hopefully find the best design out there with which we will run from then onwards.

Would something like that interest the other designers ?

Wouter

Alternatively everyone who is working on a design could get it prototyped. Take some pics of it sailing and come back with a report.

I intend to start my prototype on January 1st even if my other projects are not wound up and will complete it within 8 weeks.
The building process will be documented in detail and both material costs and hours will be logged.
As the craft will have two configurations I will prepare a report on the difference in handling and feel between them.

It would be interesting to hear the plans of others.
I expect everyone will have a different timetable so as each design hits the water it could be given more than adequate exposure this way.
In the end the parents and the kids the boats are designed for will decide.

Regards,
Phill

It is a bit late, but would it be possible to have class rules similar to the 420, with a "club" version (with fixed one design measurements) and "normal" version, with developmet rules similar to the A or C Class rules?

Luiz, part of me likes this idea, will have to think on that.

As for my design, like Phill it will come in 2 versions and hopefully we'll be able to start building the first one in 3-4 weeks.

Right now I'm finishing the structure and will post a cutaway and see-through version here shortly so you can see how it will be built.

Cheers
RG

Wouter, I think that trying to judge any of the designs solely on the basis of computer predictions is not fair. First not everyone has the same quality of software and secondly anyone who says a computer simulation is 100% correct is full of it.
Its an aid, and nothing more.
The correct way to do this is to build and test, and even then it may take us all a few attempts to get everything correct or better yet acceptable to the majority.
Cheers
RG

Luiz,
Not sure if I understand but I see development at club level as each club will set its own rules and develop them in accordance with local requirements.

After boats come together a few times ideas will change in these groups as they swap ideas and experience learnt by the various groups as all the designs move towards converging.

Also we have to be careful to not put too much emphasis on competition. You want to hook all these kids for life. To do that they need all to feel like winners. Not one winner and a fleet of losers.
Building the community feeling will be the key to success.

Just they way I see it.

Regards,
Phill

RG,
I agree 100% which is why I think we should get some boats on the water and compare notes before setting down rules.
I have no problems with rules but hesitate to set them before we do some testing.
This is why I suggested length as the only rule until we have some real life experience.

BTW: - My design will fit well inside the rules mentioned so far except maybe length. I just don't think it wise to tie our hands prematurely.
Also after careful consideration I think the boats should be 12ft6inches or under. A bit more along the lines of what Wouter was saying. It may very well end up many of the rules end up coming back to what he had but I would not agree to it without real life testing.
Just the way I see it.
Regards,
Phill

I'd like to know the rationale of boths parts. The idea, of course, is to please everyone here and also let the market decide what's best.

I believe you all know that the Optimist started with an extremely restricted box rule and nowadays is a strict one design with the goal to keep the price low by narrowing the limits where parents can play "who spends more on the kid's boat". I guess we can start with more freedom if convergence to the wining concept(s) is previously agreed upon.

Really guys, the design isn't the bottleneck; you all know what you are doing and all boats will be wonderful. I worry about obtaining worldwide support from multihull fleets, clubs, organizations and manufacturers, especially the last ones.

I have no firm commitment yet, but I might be able to prototype my design in the coming year as well.

If I do then it will first be a deep V-ed hull with most likely an simplified rig. I too envision a more high tech version with a fully battened mainsail (as the class 5 landyacht) and possibly a more refined hull shape. The latter will still be a multichine hull however.

So I guess that approach will work for us (me and the other guy). The only part we are lacking in are fancy 3-D CAD drawings, so that would be a serious disadvantage to us if the "Battle Royale" comes down to that.

Wouter