Wouter,

Um, I'm sorry, but isn't this thread about "US" youth cat sailing? We need to build with what we have, which, whether you like it or not, is Hobie 16s and Waves.

Our time is much better spent building and promoting the programs, rather than designing, building and trying to sell new boats.

I don't know how many times this needs to be pointed out to you, but kids are sailing BATHTUBS (Optis) in ridiculous numbers because of the PROGRAMS.

Mike

I don't know whether Rick mentioned this already, but the Wave Class Association is planning to hold a Youth Wave National Championship this year on November 28, 29, 30 (the weekend preceding the Open Wave Nationals). The venue for the complete Wave Week will be at Founders Park in Islamorada, which was the site of this year's Tradewinds Regatta.

There will be lots of Waves available for the kids to charter for this youth event.

I know of one person that owns a H16 with the spin. I know of two other spin packages that were floating around three years ago, but I don't know if anyone bought them - they were on loan from Hobie Cat USA. I think your 20-30 number is wildly optimistic.

I'm not taking a side here brand-wise - the one Hobie 16 with spin that I know is sailing outnumbers the number of SL16 owners. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

This year the ISAF multihull worlds were at CORK and it was on H16 with spin. Anyone know where those boats went? Looks like there were 15 boats:
http://www.youthworlds2007.org/Results/hobie.html

One of them ended up at Rehoboth Bay Sailing Assoc. in Delaware.

I saw it in the parking lot there during a regatta in October. Still had the spin hardware on it.

Mike,

How many times must the following be pointed out to YOU ?




The USA is in the backseat. Eventually your youths will race (or must race) internationally, you can train them on USA-craft-101 but at one time they will have to switch. The EU really doesn't get a warm feeling for the H16 with spi; wave is totally unknown.

Same applies to Aussies etc. The fact some of us were designing a new youth class is PARTLY because we wanted to create a uniform youth class the world over. This can not be done using the H16 as the EU is pretty much opposed to that and without the EU involved "we got nothing".

Sorry that is just how things are. Personally I favour the nacra 500 strongly but is suffers from similar problems as the H16 and SL16. The idea with a new class like the F12 was to start from the beginning where everybody lets go of their pets and get something that will work everywhere.

Again this was only PART of the reason.




I understand that and yes that is all okay. But that doesn't create any grounds on which to diss the new projects everytime you get the chance as we do what works for us, whether YOU like it or not.





I strongly disagree here. The H16 is dying as a class in the EU and many the world over HATE the H16 spi addition; the wave is failing outside of the USA. The EU is moving away from the H16 spi as the youth boat. I see no point in running down a dead-end road at full speed without a plan of getting off somewhere before the end comes.

You are working on getting us all up to speed with youths, others like myself were working on creating the "off-ramp before the road runs out of tarmac"

This is not a matter either one being right with the other being wrong. We work on to different aspect of the same problem that are equally as important.





Yes and a 100.000 Hobie 16's were sold world wide, yet the class is dying anyway. Yada, yada, yada.

Besides after having the wave for over 10 years now and the H16 for 40 years, we still haven't any youth class of note lately.

This thing can be turned upside down and inside out to proof any point a poster wants to make.


The succes of the opti's comes from the support they get from very large organisations. Newsflash, there is no support of any significance for the Wave and the H16 class doesn't want to touch a spinnaker with a 10 foot pole. These are NOT great starting points.

Additionally the optis are cheap, small, light, easily transportable and not too daunting. ... H16 with spi ? Never mind, it fails on all 4 points.

The wave isn't that much better really at 115 kg (250 lbs), a 9.5 sq. mtr. mainsail, requiring a trailer and no class worth mentioning.



Now again, getting things started on whatever boats you have available is excellent, Cudo's to that, but for the future we also need to find a more sustainable program. Preferable one that uses a baot that is cheap, small, light, easily transportable and not too daunting. THAT was on what some of us (F12) we working on. Afterwards this boat the kids graduate the maybe the H16 with spi or F18's.

Now that is a pathway, rather then a run on an endgoal that has no follow-up. And both efforts are required to make it a succes.

Wouter

Wout -

FYI, 63 youth teams at the last Hobie Euro Champs on Hobie 16 with spinnaker. That's pretty f'in big, dude.

http://www.hobieclass.com/site/hobie/ihca%5Cnewsletter%5CNewsletter_93.html

Mike --

It is lamentable that the parents left the scene before youth events could be established. But such as it is, we gotta move on. We had a similar thing happen about 10 years ago. We were lucky enough to find new blood. Some of the old blood even heard about it and came back around, so don't write them all off.

My son is 11. He will be skippering this year on the 16. I'll likely crew for him the first couple of regattas to get him feeling comfortable. We'll sail on lakes, and we won't go out in anything above probably 12k true. Before that, he was on Waves and Optis.

Spinnaker is not an issue. Don't use one! Start them out on a standard set-up. The spin can be introduced after a couple/few years. If the kids are so young that handling a 16 would be an issue, then definitely pack the kite away and keep it on the beach.

For the record, I am personally against the Hobie 16 with spin (for all ages) cuz I believe it will dilute the class. (Hey, if you want to fly a kite, buy an F18!!!) But for one event a year (Youth Multihull Championship), I would be fine with it.

But in terms of organizing something, make your contacts and recruit. Then think of where you could poach some new blood. Boat shows. Schools. Clubs. Fast n Fun.

Plan it so it will be fun and a success if 0-1 kids show up. (But be ready for more.) That way everyone will go home feeling positive or at least neutral rather than feeling like it was a big downer.

Music always 'lifts the spirits' and gets people in a party mood. It is also an attention getter. So get some popular kids music. Have food -- always a crowd pleaser regardless of how big the 'crowd' is (it may just be you and your buddy, but dang that bbq chicken is good!!!) Have shoreside activities planned (frisbee, skateboards, etc.) for those not sailing and/or for the entertainment of the volunteers in case no one shows up. Again, make it fun for EVERYONE, so your volunteers leave feeling energized.

As for the boat to use -- whatever is popular in the area you live. The Hobie 16 is everywhere, so it is an easy choice to talk about. But if there are F12s, Waves, SL16s, or something else around, use them. It really doesn't matter what the logo on the hull says as long as: 1) the boat isn't a piece of crap liable to harm someone; 2) it sails well enough that a person could actually have some fun on it.

Besides that, have patience. These things don't sprout overnight. We've been working on our program for about 3-4 years. You might consider the first couple of 'youth' events a success if no kids showed up BUT you were able to get one or two of your fleet buddies on board the train. Slowly you build your armada. Just like the advertisement -- one sailor at a time.

Best of luck!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Peter has it right. It is the people, not the boat. You have to work with what is available, and build on that program. Check the picture to the left. Dan, 12, like Will Nelson, has sailed at Sail Sand Point for four years, starting with the Opti and Wave, now Hobie 16. Will and Dan tied for first in the NAHCA high points, Wave class last year, see http://www.hcana.hobieclass.com/default.asp?Page=7220&MenuID=Rankings/10818/0/ Dan went to the Seattle Boat Show with me yesterday, and worked the Hobie Cat and Sail Sand Point Booths. (It was a no school, Snow day). Tom, 40 plus, crewed for me at age 12 on our H-16, then took over as skipper at 14. He also drove our H-18, until I got my own ride on the H-17 in 1987. He bought his H-17 in 1989, and we both still race the H-17's. There are several Hobie families in the North West with similar stories.

Many of our sailors have children that are growing up in cat racing, but many of our volunteers do not, and are helping for the love of our sport.

The H-16, love it or not, is very available, and a good platform for both youth and adults. We now have six H-16's at Sail Sand Point, all donated. Our volunteers will have all six, race ready for the 2008 season. The H-16's will be used in youth and adult classes, plus will be available for Monday night races, and Hobie Regattas. Our six Hobie Waves will also be used in the same programs and the free Fast and Fun outreach events.

Our youth that trained for the Youth Multihull Championship the past two years sailed both the H-16 and Tiger. The Tiger provided the spin training. This year, we will probably add spinnakers to H-16's to train for this event.

The real goal is to get the youth involved to expand our sport and ensure it's future. We may not be training Olympic Sailors, but we are helping develop sailors to enjoy our sport.

Caleb Tarleton
H-17 6446
MHC
Youth Multihull Championship Comm.
Sail Sand Point Board

Wouter, I'm not sure exactly when you became the center of the universe, but I guess I still don't get it. If we can't sell the SL16, what makes you think anyone will buy an F12? That was rhetorical, please don't write another long response...

I think most of us here agree on a few points: We need to start a program with what we have. H16s and Waves are currently what is most common in the US, AND we have the HCA structure to use as a jumping-off point. Waiting for a new design is just an excuse to not get off the couch, go outside and make it happen NOW, which is what we need more than anything else.

Mike

See ! There you go and an error again.

I have always been the centre of the universe, ever since time began.

When do you finally learn ? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />





And try this one for size :

F12 = 3.500 USD / 65 kg = 140 lbs and will beat the Wave and Hobie 14 around the race course.

Wave 4.500 USD / 115 kg
Hobie 16 = 10.000 USD/ 150 kg
SL16 = 13.500 USD / 150 kg (four times more expensive ! over two times as heavy ! For only 15% additional speed)

An F12 with 12-16 year old youth on it will actually weight less then any of the above named boats without a crew at all !

I never knew polyester resin was so heavy and expensive !

Wouter

Thanks for the laugh, Wouter! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I WISH we had F12s ready to go, in huge numbers, and something even smaller for the 6 year olds to give them a better choice from the Optis. How close are you?

Mike

Hey ! I learned to lighten up now and then, although that feels like hard work to me.





Well in my case, the basic concept is finished as well as most of the specs and building solutions. I have a basic daggerboardless deep-V hull design that can be homebuild out of ply or flat panels of glassed over foam. Costs and weights are all narrowed down to about 15 % uncertainty level. All that is not the problem at this time. Even the prototyping is not an issue. I have a volunteer who has done two ply boats already who is willing to do it. Personally I'd like someone to work on tricking out the hulls in the looks department some more because I'm not the most skilled at that as I sufficient experience in how ply bends and deforms.

The real problem at this time is that I need to go at it alone as all persons associated with the F12 have each gone seperate routes. At this time I can't personally justify the expense and time to thoroughly test a prototype and bring it to market. At this time I haven't even got the money to pick up the prototype from the guy who is willing to build it for me.

Maybe next year or the year after that. The concept is sound and I know it will work as the new features (for a cat) have been used extensively in landyachting. And of course the engineering math I've done confirm this experience in numbers.

Basically, We're (or I'm ) not that far off, we (I) just hit a key obstacle that is called lack of funds.

Wouter

While you're in a light mood, maybe you can design this to be rotomolded so we can have them made by Hobie Cat? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mike

The H16 is ancient history....<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Btw - it was also too heavy for kid crews to right (was not designed for kids in first place). <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Actually Retired Geek (known for his LR2 A-cat) has found a rotomoulded manufactorer in Aus that was able and willing to make a decent lightweight rotomoulded F12. Last news was that they were seriously considering giving it a try. Although a rotomoulded cat will always weight a little more.

And as the F12 was/is basically a formula setup Hobie could come out with a rotomoulded F12 of their own or just buy the building license.

Some of us were actually quite far with the F12 project !

I also had another idea.

Take a look at this :

http://www.catamaran.com.ar/news.htm

and click on the RC16 in the bottom lefthand corner. It is glass boat and not a F12 design BUT it goes ready-to-sail for 4500 USD because it is produced in Argentina. Basically we could get such a builder to build cheap glass hulls c.q. boats where the hulls are inexpensive enough to simply be replaced when damaged alot.

I understand the advantages of rotomoulded hull, but in my experience glass hulls don't really have to be very prone to damage either. Also their are other tricks to make the hulls pretty damage resistant.

For those of you who have forgotten, here is one example of a 12 footer youth boat as proposed and worked out by Phill Brander. It is a really good looking boat.





But now back to the main topic of first organising the Youth programs using what ever design is most easily available, because if ever the F12 comes into existants then the switch is easily make quickly enough anyway. The two paths are much more mutuall reinforcing then competing.

Wouter

Hey Wouter,

My last post was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, it appears you weren't the only one who missed that.

However, if we could get these made by Hobie Cat, we could tie into the HCA format, which would be very helpful in the US. I know other countries may be different, but we need to start somewhere.

Mike

I understood that, but I still felt that something of value could be replied and so I did.

Wouter

Mike,
You should check out the incredible lineup of boats that Hobie-Europe has produced, including roto-molded cats. They have really tried every combo of size, shape, and sailplans - too many, I think. Take a few minutes and check out each one. They are very cool! Check out the 13 foot 250 pound roto-molded Teddy. Even a spin!

Hobie-Europe cat offerings

Tough, its the next Isaf youth worlds boat so round some up, get Hobie to supply knock down price spinny kits[in the name of self promotion], get your NA to subsidize some coaching[in the name of an ISAF medal] and get on with promoting it. All this 'grass is greener in europe' is putting a damper on youth cat training before it gets going. Very few countries are any different from the US, the hobie 16 does not have big spinny fleets, adults/the class do not want to promote the spinny - its just down to a small bunch of do-ers to get things moving.