David, I have seen those boats. Somewhere on this site I have a post to that effect: I was saddened that the smallest boat was still way more powerful than an Opti.

TEAMVMG, I don't think we're saying the grass is greener, we're just trying to sort out what is our best path forward. I have a few ideas, as do others, and while grassroots is a good thing, it is too sporatic and thin; we really need a country-wide program that people can buy into. I know, it has to start small...

Mike

Don't you have a national Hobie class association that can set the ball rolling?

It's not that simple. The HCA-NA can provide some $ and some coordination, but it takes boots on the ground to make stuff happen at a local level.

Until people start committing time and labor to a program like what's happending in the Pacific Northwest, it's not going to happen.

Matt- I think TEAMVMG is asking if HCA-NA would allow official h16 youth spin events.It would be nice but as you know the class and its leaders opposed it 2 years ago because they thought it would threaten h16 nonspin sailing. If it is restricted to youth sailing I don't believe it would. Most kids would still to want race in local and national h16 events and it would primarily benefit Hobie members kids [who have access to a decent h16]to compete against the yacht club kids in the multihull champs.

There is a strong dissidence about bringing the spinnaker into the Hobie 16 class. Right now an argument can be made that the Hobie 16 represents the largest multihull racing class in the world. Many N. Americans, myself included, do not want to see that diluted. Yes, the class numbers can support it. But on a world level, we are still behind the Aussies and the French. We need to keep the competition on this continent focused on one class, not two.

Before we conquer the ISAF Youth Worlds, maybe we ought to just get a national youth program going. Congratulations to Chris Segerblom and Andrew Mason for winning the event in January. And best to luck for them at ISAF Worlds. Not to take anything away from their victory -- they were up against a couple of tough teams -- but the rest of the field didn't appear to be anywhere close. What if we develop a strong national program to challenge for a national rep? Then we can take on the world.

So why not put together a strong national youth program on the H-16. The winner of the US SAILING championship can then get on with training with spinnaker. To put it succinctly...

1) The H-16 is the natural platform of choice for youth in NA.
2) NA will not support the H-16 w/ spin.

It's that simple. It may not be pretty. It may not be what you want. But it is what it is.

So rather than whining about an SL16 or an F-12 or spinnakers or anything else, why not get out the calendar and put down just ONE youth event in your area this year? You're reading this thread. That means YOU are the one that is going to have to do it.

When your region starts putting together 6-10 good youth teams, then I think your voice will be heard. Till then, shut up. Or to put it another way, "Your actions speak so loudly, I cannot hear what you say!"

Build it. Then change it.

South Florida is covered. As I already mentioned, we are hosting a youth-only Wave National Championship over Thanksgiving Weekend in the Keys.

Some people have already pointed out on this thread that every area has to work with whatever boats are most available locally -- in South Florida it is the Waves. Fortunately, the winds in the Keys are usually enough to make even the Waves a little exciting.

It's a great venue for kids and whole families, because Founders Park has all sorts of other amenities, too -- an Olympic-sized swimming pool and diving pool, a great skateboard park, basketball court, tennis courts, golf driving range, baseball and soccer fields, bicycle/jogging/rollerblade paths, kids playgrounds right by the beach.....

In addition to that, Chip and Barb Short have made great strides with their sailing programs at Founders Park. They have both private and group lessons available on a year-round basis, and their youth programs have been very popular with the local kids, some of whom have become regulars who show up every week. In the summer they have sailing camp programs for the kids.

Programs for kids on Waves are also available at Scott and Dior Hubel's Performance Sail & Sport up in Melbourne, FL.

When a venue has boats available and offers sailing programs and offers a youth regatta and the boats have two hulls, it would be pretty destructive for the sport in general to say, "We aren't interested, because you don't have fast boats with spinnakers."

I could go on for pages about all the things you guys have talked about, but I will spare you the agony of listening to my opinions. As Peter said, the important thing is to DO something, rather than just talk about it, and talking is what people have been doing for at least 20 years. The "kids" when the talking started are now 35 years old.

The main point being made is, let's get off the couch and get this done. The boat doesn't matter. In fact, if there's no program, there isn't even a need for boats.

As for the H16 spin debate, let's squash that like a bug. Per the IHCA Class rules, the Hobie 16 is sailed without a spinnaker, except for Youth events, as allowed by Appendix B.

Since the Hobie 16 is an ISAF-recognized class, the class rules cannot be modified except as provided within ISAF Regulation 26.5(f).

In other words, it’s not the US holding this back. The IHCA and ISAF have designated this as a non-spinnaker boat (for adults). Of course, this could be changed over time, but as long as the majority of voting class members is voting against it, there will be no spinnaker on a Hobie 16, and that can’t be changed at individual regattas without specific steps (major work) being taken.

Mike

Good idea.

Then I and some others will work on the background on something that can become handy in the future.

Best of succes !

Wouter

You say that the 16 spin is only a youth class - thats what the US wants! There can't be anything stopping a spinnaker class at HCA events except the old farts running it!

FAIL. Read the class rules. What do you care anyway?

From your profile:


Don't get into a fight that you don't have a dog in.

TEAMVMG-does your son race h16spin and did he win the SL16 2007 Youth Gold cup?
Matt-I'm sorry about pushing you guys on the issue but the youth interest in the Youth Multihull Champs has increased and I was hoping that some regional youth spin racing could start.Anyway my dog is ageing out this year.

How many cat sailors are there with kids in the junior ranks?

It looks like that for 35 years.... It has never hit a critical mass in any region/division.

What is your best guess for 2008 ..... 100 kids... 200 kids...

Hmm....

Mark -- add a zero to your numbers.

In Area L (the Pacific NW) we have identified 40 kids we are going to target. Now all of them may not go for it, and still others might join that we haven't yet identified.

But if there are 40 in the Pacific NW, there has to be 1,000-2,000 nationwide. Not a bad start...cuz it is only a start!! We're gonna keep building this thing!

Once we have a bonafide youth program up and running, I wonder what the numbers will look like!!!

The (adult) spin debate is best left for another discussion, I think. Yes, the rules can be changed. But, we (the MEMBERSHIP) voted on this a few years ago, it didn't pass.

The volunteers that "run" the class don't have as much power as you think. TEAMVMG (and anyone else thinking about this), as one of those volunteers, I implore you not to insult us and expect to be taken seriously.

I'd love to see a circuit of youth events across the country flying chutes off H16s. We are many, many years (programs) away from anything like that. I truly believe we can get there, but we need to start with what is commonly available now and build up to that.

My son is about 15 months old. I hope that by the time he's ready for an Opti, we have built an alternative cat program. I'm interested in positive discussions with anyone willing to help.

Mike

Hi Peter

While I hope you are right.... You have a very community based access program which is focused on cat sailing as a lifetime activity.... You report on 6 or so kids who are into racing. (Kudos to your region's commitment and success!)

You are one of three programs that people have voluntereed info on.... not exactly a wide foundation of junior cat sailing in the country.

When I look at the regatta scene.... I am guessing 10 or 12 kids who are regularly sailing with parents or friends of parents in areas like Area C, (Hobie Div 11.... might have 25 different kids at events on 16's and 18's over the year.)

Hobie NA keeps track of kids participation at nationals... but doesn't deal with the grass roots stuff at the division and fleet levels. So... it's hard to get a number on the number and ages of kids in the various fleets.

If the average age of a cat sailor is close to 45 or 50...
We might not have all that many of our own kids.... much less kids who get hooked sailing.

What I am coming to understand is that I may be overestimating the number of junior racers and interest out there. (certainly no interest in an east coast CISA program)

We lost the only stand alone jr cat regatta on the chesapeake this year...to my dismay... the interest in replacing the event has been underwhelming. Div 11 did not schedule any jr only races this year. They have opted for a grant program to get individual kids to worlds and national events and that is the program.

I am really surprised that more regions don't have any catsailor forum members who step and say.... "OH... we do XXX for our junior sailors, we have YY who are at fleet events over the year and this is our program."

Yep, I think we all overestimate -- at least in the United States. Most of the cat racing activity is in the eastern half of the United States, and that is with a relatively small number of active adult racers spread over a huge area. So why would we think there would be enough junior cat sailors? An affinity for catamaran sailing (or ANY sailing) is not genetic.

It all goes back to the way it has always been done through US Sailing, with sailing/racing youth camps at the yacht clubs and the fleet racing done on a regional basis through the Regional Sailing Associations, with ladder step regattas leading to national championships.

You guys are trying to re-invent the wheel, and it isn't going to work. The yacht clubs don't want to bring in catamarans as another fleet, because it will take kids from their existing fleet racing programs. And catamaran sailors just aren't organized enough -- and never will be, I hope. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Cripe, look at the two clubs Rick and I belong to. We have developed a fleet of 10 Waves at Put-in-Bay Yacht Club. We race twice a week and it is the ONLY racing program going on at that club. The Junior Sailing Program there, which goes on for about six weeks in early summer prior to Junior Bay Week, uses 420's and Lasers and maybe a couple of Flying Juniors (or whatever it is).

Why do they use those boats? Because those are the boats that are raced by the juniors in all the clubs in the RSA, and the elite racing crews travel to events within the region, with financial sponsorship from the club, I am sure.

Right after Junior Bay week in late July, all the junior boats are packed away in the barn except for a couple for the "elite" racing teams to use when they travel to events within the RSA. Do any of the other kids who participated in the sailing camp in early summer complain and ask why they can't continue using the boats and racing for the rest of the summer? NO! They really don't care. The sailing camp apparently is something their parents make them do.

At our club in Key Largo, we have developed a fleet of 12 Waves and we race there twice a week, as well. Again, the Waves are the ONLY active racing fleet at the club. The club has an ongoing junior sailing/racng program, and the club recently purchased four used 420's from another facility. Why? Because those are the boats that are used in the regional high school and club racing.

We have invited the junior sailors to come out and race with us in our series races Wednesday and Sunday, but they never do. Again, the kids really don't care about it.

Chip and Barb Short have this great program for kids in Islamorada (just south of Key Largo), and they are having great success in getting kids excited about sailing. But most of the kids are VERY adamant that they want nothing to do with racing. They just want to go out and sail and have fun and practice capsizing and righting and stuff like that. But at least in the process they ARE learning how to sail and are having fun at it. And, even better, they are learning on catamarans!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So maybe that is what it is really all about when we are dealing with young kids and young teens. At least they are learning to love being on the water in sailboats. And that's kind of how it was for me when I was a kid -- and kind of how it still is, and maybe why I still feel like a kid. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I am certain that is the way it should be done. Focus on the fun part and let them learn trough games where nobody wins. After a while, if some of them wants to compete, get the regatta training program going in other nights. Some are probably never going to want to compete, but as long as we get them out on the water on cats for a good time, so what?

"My son is about 15 months old. I hope that by the time he's ready for an Opti, we have built an alternative cat program. I'm interested in positive discussions with anyone willing to help."


Optis! BLEH! We don't need no stinkin' prams for our catsailing kids!

If they are old enough and big enough to sail an Opti they can sail on Waves, 2 together. They start out learning how to work together as crew.

We've successfully been throwing 7-8 year olds on Hobie Waves for coming up on 3 years now. Once they've been on the Waves they turn their noses up at Optis and Sunfish.

There's 4 "commands" they need to know for you to coach them: push, pull, in, out. Push and pull is for the tiller and in and out is for the sheet.

Don't waste time talking on shore. Show them what you mean by push, pull, in and out. Then push them off. Some will instinctively figure things out on their own within minutes. The rest you spend your time going from boat to boat using the 4 simple commands they learned on shore.

Yes, yes! You may be as surprised as I was by one of the things I learned by attending this year's US Sailing National Sailing Program Symposium. Many, many community sailing centers around the country count Hobie Waves as a big part of their programs and will tell you how popular they are with their sailors. AND there is an increasing focus on recreational sailing, because that's what people want.

US Sailing has just created an entire new branch for the purpose of developing and supporting recreational/non-racing programs.

As an aside, all of us who are involved in teaching sailing or introducing people to sailing should be attending the annual Symposium. For one it would raise our presence as a multihull community. There were maybe a handful of us there. The kiteboarders and windsurfers were there. Where were we?

The other biggie you get out of attending this kind of event is the value of the networking. I've met people from all over the country, I know what their strengths are and won't hesitate to call on them if I need some help, ideas, information, etc.

Not to mention the actual conference presentations are not only very informational, but entertaining and interactive. My favorites are where it is basically a round table where all of us focus on a particular topic and share with everybody else the good, the bad, and the ugly that we know or have experienced.

If you make the effort to attend you will be rewarded many times over. It really kicks up your own energy and enthusiasm for your own programs. You come away with tons of fresh ideas and excitement, and a support network to lean on during the coming year.

"TEAMVMG-does your son race h16spin and did he win the SL16 2007 Youth Gold cup?"

yes - both my boys are active, we also won round texel youth and Dragoon europeans in 2007 - a good year for the team [I won Nothing!]

I shall dip out of this debate as I am up winding the good guys up........