Got a regatta coming up in Singapore and trying to ensure that the correct Texel handicaps are used. Already had them correct the A-Cat from 100 to 101, but want to make sure the other boats are right. We are expecting 30 to 35 boats so should be a great turnout.

Now I believe that the Viper should be marked at 103 like the rest of the F16 boats, but Goodall and the local dealer think that it is 104 due to its excess weight.

But what I don't get is that the Viper was designed to the F16 box rule, but the builders/designers for some reason decided to make it more bloated and heavy rather than going for the class minimum weight. That is the only aspect where it differs from other F16 designs.

If it turned up at an F16 event it wouldn't get a credit for being heavier, so I believe that it should be rated at 103. We have a "F16 event" in April, so in that all boats won't have handicaps and where you finish across the line is your result, so you can't have it both ways. That to me is really taking the piss.

So looking to canvass views of what the F16 community thinks. We will be having 6 or so Vipers, and 10 or so Taipans all with kites racing. The guy with the Blade is unfortunately away.

Also find it funny that the Taipan is pushed as the older design here and need to upgrade to a more modern boat, but that boat rates slower!!

And whilst we are at it, what would the Texel rating be for a Taipan with a standard F16 spin, Taipan class jib, but a F16 design mainsail. And also the same boat with a 21 sq m kite.

Thanks!!

The fact is important that when you make your entry to the event that you descripe how you are sailing. If you are going to sail as a F16 then you will have a rating of 102 for the 2 man up. If you are going to sail as a Viper then you need a seperate measurement form where the handycap is calculated specific for that type of Viper.

If you are sailing a F16 event with only F16 then you will not sail with a handycap at all, it will be on elapsed time. First place finish is a first place finish and it cannot be that a heavy boat sails with a handycap in a F16 event.

Only in open events you can have different handycap but then you have to show this with a seperate document otherwise you are sailing F16 with a TR of 100 single handed and 102 double handed.

A Taipan which is not equiped standard needs to have a measurement form with the dimensions and then you can calculate the TR handycap.
In the TR the weight factor is a MAJOR factor.

Regards,
Hans Klok

Im missing something..
If the event is a F16 class the first finishes is the winner. Be it Taipan, Viper, Blade or my bodgy job. So I don't see why a handicap is being used.

If the event is a open race with various classes racing for the one cup. Then the Viper can sail as a F16 in which case its 103 or as a non-F16 and in its own class. It will thus be labeled as Viper the sleepy Taipan!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As for the last question.. Have no idea as the boat isn't a F16 in either configurations

The short and simple answer is :

F16 1-up Texel = 101 (and not 100, as Hans says)
F16 2-up Texel = 102

Taipan 1-up OD Texel = 108 (no spi and no new mainsail design are any F16 mods)
Taipan 2-up OD Texel = 107 (no spi and no new mainsail design are any F16 mods)

Taipan 1-up OD with F16 or 21 sq. mtr spi Texel = 102 (but not the new mainsail)
Taipan 2-up OD with F16 or 21 sp. mtr spi Texel = 103 (but not the new mainsail)

If a Taipan has a new mainsail as adopted by the Taipan class a while ago or has any other modifification not allowed by its 2002 class rules then that Taipan has no Texel handicap and can not officially make use of the F16 handicap either. The latter is the result of the F16 class rules that state that modifying the Taipan in any way, except adding a F16 spi, putting it out of its own 2002 class will void any F16 grandfather status.

Then what Hans says is correct, the Viper should be officially measured by a Texel official or an official accepted by Texel committee (ISAF measurers I guess) to get an official handicap awarded. Currently it has none.

If any Taipan owner modifies for example his mainsail to F16 specs then he can't sail with the Taipan jib anymore while making an appeal to F16 status. The Taipan jib is NOT F16 compliant and it is only grandfathered in combination with the (old) Taipan OD mainsail as that is slightly less performant then the new mainsails.


Wouter

The Viper is indeed designed to the F16 rulebox, meaning the Viper is an F16.
On the other hand, by making it a lot heavier the Viper gets a rating of 104, making it compliant to the 1.04 rules (= having a rating of about 1.04). That rating is important in France at the moment. (They are trying to establish an F104 class).

Bottomline, the Viper is heavier out of a selling point of view.

Regards,
Gill

Well,

1.04 is indeed an important rating in france, except that french sailor are using the SCHRS Ratings, not the Texel rating... And Viper is NOT 1.04 with this rating system.

Ciao,
tom.

So let me get this straight. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
F16 2-up Texel = 102
Viper 16 2-up Texel = 103 unless it's a 104
Old Taipan with newly approved main is faster then all of the above. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Could you define precisely what you mean by "faster". There are so many different ways to claim the "faster" title that even Don King could not keep track of it <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

A viper entered an event as F16 will always have a TR rating of 102 double handed.
A rating of 101 single handed (not 100 as mentioned earlier).

Summary:
Every boat entered as F16 in open events will have a TR rating
102 for double handed.
101 for single handed.

When the boat weights 125 kg it will have a TR rating of 104 but it will NOT enter as a F16 to that event but as a Viper and will not sail in the F16 class of that open event. It will sail in the open or own class.

You need a measurement certificate for both configurations to show what the dimensions of the boat are.

When sailing an event with only F16's there will be sailed on elapsed time and NO rating is used.

Regards,
Hans

Isn't it true though that the skipper may choose to enter an open event as F16 and take the 101/102 F16 rating? I'm thinking that Viper owners may consider that their boats are actually just as fast as other F16s and prefer to sail to what they consider to be a more realistic rating in order to promote the view that the Viper is fully competitive as a F16.

Only to people who have trouble noticing that a Taipan OD with spi at 103 is actually slower then a 102 F16 !

The new Taipan main can never make the Taipan rating faster by more then 1 point (rounded off, as difference it is actually 0.58%) before becoming non-F16 compliant.

That means you again buccy !

have you ever been right in any of your postings so far ?

Wouter

To go off on a slight tangent. How can the Taipan 4.9 with new main but no spi rate just one point higher than the F-16 with spi? I assume that is what we are comparing, as the Taipan 4.9 OD class never have gone the spi route.

Yes ofcourse people may choose, i am not saying that. I only try to make clear that there is a difference when sailing an open event and sailing a F16 event.
You have a choise with the Viper at 125 kg.

Say, when is that regatta? I just found out that I may be in Singapore the week of March 10.

MarkMT (and anyone else who is interested), Singapore regatta dates coming up are:

Feb 23/24 - Monsoon Cup (also raced with yachts, sportboats, J24s and other lead poisonous things)
Mar 15/16 - National Cat Champs
Mar 23 - Outermark Race (distance race)
Apr 5/6 - F16 Cat Champs

Send a PM, or contact Alice Lim through this website: http://www.prosail-asia.com/ Sure to get you on a boat.

Cool. Even if I could get on the water to take photos I'd be thrilled (no sailing here in March <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ). I will update you as my plans firm in the next few days.

So, if the Viper was designed to the F16 rule, and meets all the requirements then it should race on:

F16 1-up Texel = 101
F16 2-up Texel = 102

We don't have any scales at our club so weight cannot be verified (but it does "feel" a lot heavier), and there aren't any measurers locally. Giving itself a rating of 104 isn't really justified until it has an official measurement cert to qualify that number.

The fact is that in both ways you will try to do your best to get a measurement certificate. This will ban every discussion. If the Viper has a measurement certificate then you can say what the TR can be. It is designed as a full spec F16.

Regards,
Hans

Exactly.

If a Viper owner can present a measurement cert stating all up weight then it will get a SCHRS rating with that weight AS A VIPER.

But if you enter the Viper as an F16 then you sail on the F16 rating.

Looks like the can of worms is now open.....

How many boats would be affected if F16 migrated to 104?

Then the French fleets could be incorporated, the Viper would fit properly and with the slight increase in weight the class would be of interest to larger builders.