Tony, thanks for the link. The advance looks very nice. I'm not looking for a boat right now though. Just trying to plan ahead!
We will be moving to Vlissingen in a couple of months, and sailing at "Cat club Zeeland", on the North Sea.

Hmmmm. The bic o'pen looks like a promising toy that could be car topped when I am too lazy to tow the cat, as I often sail alone and would like to sail after work. I could thow the bic on the roof of the car the night before.......I wonder what the pricing on the bic is like?

Ok, sorry for the hijack. I'm a big sunfish advocate, as I started out in a sunfish around the age of 7 or 8. It was a good little boat, I could take a friend out if I wanted.

Having never sailed an opti, I don't know the boat. I do know that I usually see kids in the 5-7 range sailing them.

The Bic is a cool boat. I sailed it 2 years ago, I definitely fit in it better than an Opti! The no bailing advantage is HUGE!!! But I don't forsee it taking over Optis. My friend is in charge of promoting it in North America... the marketing strategies and effort they are putting into carrying it out is really unique and exciting. Check out the Miami Bic O'pen Un-Regatta video on youtube, the kids are definitely having fun.
LaserPerformance (formerly Vanguard) has introduced the Bug this year. Their approach to a new Opti, similar rig and idea to the Bic O'Pen, obviously direct competition. Theres a clip on youtube from the london boat show about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwuugqfBZ8c

Just brush the snow off the tramp and get out on it!!!.. bring and ice pick with you if you need to break the ice off your trailer wheels!!!!!

hehe

Dennis, I felt the same way until I saw a fleet(50+)of Opti's at Lake Eustis while racing the N20. I got a whole new impression of the junior fleet and Opti Fleet. My 8yo has an Opti and a H14, and although he prefers the H14 for the fun factor, the Opti racing is really cool. Tons of kids, and lots of head to head racing in many fleets of different skill levels. There is no other boat offering that kind of racing anywhere in the world. And yes he has sailed my Laser, but he is not ready for that boat or the H14 in any significant wind.
I remember in the 70's when I saw my 1st NACRA, I thought it was the ugliest cat I had ever seen, mostly because all I had ever seen was H14's and H16's. I later owned a 5.2 as my 1st cat...funny how we can be so impressionable by a certain "look"

Guess you are right Dave,
if my son turns out to like racing, I guess he needs to go with whatever gives him the best competition at first. It would probably do him little good if he was the only one sailing a small cat. OTOH, a small cat would definitely have an obvious 'coolness' advantage.

Good point on the Nacra vs Hobie. Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder. (My first cat still IS a Nacra 5.2 BTW)

Dennis:
I think Cat Club Zeeland is currently the center of Hobie Dragoon youth catsailing, you will meet Geert there who runs the program.

OK, thanks Tony, I'll keep my eyes peeled...

Apparently I am the exception to the rule, but I learned on a Sunfish. My parents bought two of them (they can be found really cheap in good condition if you look carefully), and my mom taught my sister and I to sail them when we were 9. Last summer I got tired of my boat (not exciting enough on average days) so I got a job and purchased a Hobie 14 standard, which is currently being upgraded to turbo.
One guy at the club has a Wave, which he races regularly, and I have found that my 14 is slightly faster. The only problem is that it can't take passengers well. Still, some light kids might be able to sail one. I'm to old and big for that ( 17 years old, 155 lbs), although I did take a friend out once when the race was cancelled (it was blowing 28 mph- fun times).

Ok Im going to date myself.. I learnt on a VJ http://fly.to/veejay

But is the f12 designed for 5-10 years olds to sail solo? or is it the "next boat"?

It depends on the sail size, risk apetite and number of kids on board.

Kids in this age range can sail the F12 two up normally. They can also choose to take some risk and sail singlehanded below the ideal weight. Parents who don't like that risk would simply rig a smaller sail.

At least the VJ looks fast and furious...
The F12 looks promising but I don't know where that is headed... It appears the target audience for the design is undefined. Maybe who buys what and how many will decide where it goes?

I believe the old VJ was the fastest sharpie hulled boat, for length, at that time. When I was growing up only in cyclone winds were races canceled and then only because the safety boat was getting swamped. On a tight shy in a blow we used o keep up with the I14s.. Helps if one has a light weight boat and a low aspect rig in those conditions.. Having the ablilty to have effectively two kids on trap also helps!! Also we used woolen "jumpers" to keep us warm. The added advantage is 4 wet wool layers was almost as much as I weighted at that time!! Great boat but not for the faint hearted..

Boats like the VJ, mini skiffs (6, 8, 10 & 12) and later Flying Ant & Cherub, I suspect account for the great strength in Aussie and NZ sailing skill levels and boat design leadership in past generations.

I believe the old VJ was the fastest sharpie hulled boat, for length, at that time. When I was growing up only in cyclone winds were races canceled and then only because the safety boat was getting swamped. On a tight shy in a blow we used to keep up with the I14s.. Helps if one has a light weight boat and a low aspect rig in those conditions.. Having the ablity to have effectively two kids on trap also helps!! Also we used woolen "jumpers" to keep us warm. The added advantage is 4 wet wool layers was almost as much as I weighted at that time!! Great boat but not for the faint hearted..

Boats like the VJ, mini skiffs (6, 8, 10 & 12) and later Flying Ant & Cherub, I suspect account for the great strength in Aussie and NZ sailing skill levels and boat design leadership in past generations.

In my mind the F12 has a very clear target audience as a first boat for the "tweens". Ideally the class will promote safe and enjoyable racing and social sailing.

My own personal goal for the class is to gain ISAF "recognised" status by the end of 2010.

There has been a lot of talk here and in other places about the need to develop a suitable youth cat class but it won't happen without a few people putting in the time and effort required to kick start it. Everyone reading this is a cat enthusiast, so if you have kids of the right age and so do some of the people you sail with and against talk to them about the idea of building an instant fleet. If you build a few boats together they will cost less than many of you spend on sails each year and you'll quickly have the critical mass required to encourage other people to join you.

The other advantage of F12 is that as a new box rule the "best solution" is yet to be found, so any budding cat designer's out there (you know its you) can have a go at designing and building their own boat on a scale that won't blow the bank if your idea doesn't fly. I'm more than happy to provide technical assistance to people going down this path.

Chris Tucker

Another advantage is the price of the plans. Tell them.

I know about Chris's free plans! He gave me a set and they sure look great.
My kids are not old enough yet but I'm still quite interested. Besides I have been wanting to build a boat for a long time. Maybe an F12 could fit the bill.

as chris puts it:
<quote>The other advantage of F12 is that as a new box rule the "best solution" is yet to be found </quote>
That is what I think will need to happen before "mass adoption (wouldn't that be nice!)" can happen.

I think the Optis are so popular because of the KISS principle (and no, I don't mean Dereck Kelsall's version).
I also think the rest of this topic deserves to be in the F12 forum BTW.

I think Mary hit it right on-"If your child likes racing [and steering], you are going to have to give up your own racing for maybe years to take your child to Opti regattas. Most catamaran sailors are not willing to make that sacrifice."
My daughter is years behind most Opti kids in her skippering skills since she "wasted" so much time crewing for me, and she started THAT late compared to the Optis. It's going to take her a long time to catch up, and maybe she'll never do that because she still doesn't have all summer to race. We also don't have a local yacht club with a junior racing program (I don't count one hour each way as local). I did give up some of my "good" racing early on by training up a young crew (and a 10 year old girl on a Hobie 20 is NOT the optimum crew), and now I'm giving up more possible success by letting her steer when we still sail together (although maybe she'll be better than I am pretty quickly; She's starting earlier than I did.) Big plus again, though, provided we both find crews, we can double stack the 16 and 20 and both of us get to race. We COULD do that in Lasers, too, but both of us prefer real boats :-) I love to come to work on Monday and all the other parents are talking about spending all weekend watching soccer, and I say, "I raced WITH my daughter." OK, I'm selfish, but that time together has to count for something, right? I know firsthand she earned those bruises :-)

All I know is that when we were able to "share" a youth event with the Optis, all those kids came in for packing up and coaching debriefs (with a nice breeze still blowing). The cat kids stayed out for another hour on their own, reaching back and forth and trying to flip. Looked like fun to me. I also heard one young lad tell his mother "Those Hobies look cool, Mom", and she replied "Yes, but they may be too fast for us". !! I think she made a convert right there; just may take a while :-)

I say let 'em train on the Optis, then move in and steal 'em.

Well, look at all the people who give up sailing to take their kids to soccer games and little league. It's the same thing when you take your kids to Opti regattas. And let's say it wasn't Optis...let's say it was small catamarans and those catamarans had a network like the Optimists have. Would most catamaran sailors, even then, give up their own regatta sailing for years to take their kids to the youth events?

Won't happen with my kids, at least if any of my genes transfered through. I'm one of the few that is actually more coordinated while inebriated. They don't have a chance at anything that requires catching or throwing.


Why not hand the tiller over to the kids on a full sized beach cat. Most probably can't handle the main sheet too well, but that's easy enough for a crew/dad to handle. I think it would probably take some serious patience but its a heck of alot cheaper than building, buying, storing, and transporting a second boat. Plus it would give you a chance to really coach the kid, vs sending it out to gets its butt kicked.

or, am I way off in left field? I don't have kids, so I am actually shooting in the dark here.