Is it fair to run 7 races a day in a week long championship?

See peter nelson's comments in the H16NA thread about top sailors missing races for some examples.

By contrast, The Tornado class limits championships to two races per day, at the OCR in Miami.. the class reluctantly agreed to a max of three for the class.

The reasons are ... breakdowns... If you breakdown and can't finish the day... you are out at most two races.. At the the 16 nationals... you could miss three races in just a couple of hours for a repair.

Secondly, A champinship should be about Peak performance...Sailing is not at its core a marathon sport.. Usually it's a game of skill, stamina and fitness. Starting at 8:30 and going to 5:30 is shifting the balance well over to stamina and fitness and less about peak sailing performance.

Opinions?

Is it not man and machine? Sometimes the best driver has a car breakdown and loses the race, is that fair?

You are kidding, right?

1. Breakdowns; simple rule. 5 Ps: Prior Preparation Prevents Poor Performance. If your boat and your body are not fully prepared then (IMO) you shouldn't expect to finish well.

2. Peak performance: Being ready to sail in a national-caliber race means you are ready for anything the PRO throws your way, both physically and mentally. Sailing catamarans is a physical sport. Long days on the water weeds out the particpants from the champions.

3. Any questions? Amen.

Bob <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
PS: I'm over 50 and a Type 1 diabetic; still going strong!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

It's fair if it is known by everyone well in advance so that ppl can prepare their boats and themselves.

It does seem a bit strange though. 7 races/day over 5 days equals 35 races. That's more than some ppl race in a year. Certainly get your money's worth.

Can redress be sought if damage is caused by a collision that keeps you out of races?

I'm not going there with the "fair or not" discussion, but here is some info that might be helpful...

Having raced under, and worked on the Signal Boat with PU at a ridiculous number of NAs starting in 1997, I can shed a bit of insight...

For Hobie 16s, racing in 30 knots is ABSOLUTELY to be expected.

4-5 races per day is typically his target for NAs.

7 events in one day rarely happens, and only happens when there are numerous days of little or no races (either after a day or two of no races, or in front of a day with a bad weather forecast). He would not run off 5 days of 7 races.

Having also worked at a number of different championship events for other classes of boats, including Olympic trials, I can tell you that many other classes have a scheduled number of races per day (such as two). The schedule may allow up to one more per day, to either get ahead or catch up, in the event of missing races due to weather (or some other major issue).

Redress can be sought for missing races due to damage, assuming it's not your fault. I don't know if there is precedent for that to apply to more than one race. Ultimately, that is a question for the jury to decide.

EDIT: Before anyone asks (you'd be amazed at how many times I've heard this question), the key part here for a BYOB regatta is, the damage MUST be caused by an event that was not your fault to get redress. You cannot get redress if something on your own boat breaks (such as falling through and ripping a sail in a capsize that was not caused by someone else).

Supplied boat events are different, and you can get redress for a random broken part, again, at the discretion of the jury (so people don't sabotage a supplied boat if they have a bad race). And, if you capsize in a puff away from other boats and rip a sail, that would probably be considered "your fault."

Hope this helps.

Mike

Seven races in one day, after losing a day to no wind, followed by a day of five races? That's not unfair.

I liked to know the elapsed times of the races. Knowing the limitations in course size at Clear Lake, the wind speed, and the standard Hobie courses, the likelihood of any of the last 12 races taking much longer than 45 minutes is slim.

Exhaustion? Maybe some have being trying to pace the 'Ricans in rum consumption, instead of sleeping and eating their wheaties. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Everyone heard the hype of these typical wind conditions

Mark are you kidding ? They have only got 14 races in over four days that is 3.5 races per day if they raced every day. I go to regattas to race not sit on the beach. We sailed 5 races last saturday and started at 1:00 and finished at 4:30 sailing three lap races about 30 min each.

Good point John. PU's target time is typically 50-60 minutes for a championship event. But, if the wind and geography doesn't play along, that can be tough to hit.

Mike

Hi Dave and Bob

No, not kidding!
As Brucat noted... Most of the other class non cat Championship regattas that he has worked limit the number of races to two or three IN THE NOTICE OF RACE

The Tornado Class does it... I will bet money without looking that the F18's do the same.

So, Must be some reason....

In Tornado's...the reasons I was given was equipment breakdown did not knock you out of a good finish with a throw and limit of races per day.

I am certain there are others.

I have also seen Olympic level crew's needing assistance after three races in 15 knots.

Other classes LIMIT the number of races in a championship...eg 11 races with one throwout. The Hobie 16 culture of run em till the time runs out... go for the record ... or till you die is very different

For sure... this philosophy gets you the most amount of sailing for you money.

I am just asking the question and pointing to the differences that exist in the sport. We are not the first group of sailors to consisder this question ... and we differ from the majority of classes... Might be good to have some good clear reasons. My only issue is again one of clarity and full disclosure.
Just as NOR's declare the limit races per day and races per championship. Perhaps they should be clear when the intention of the championship is to have unlimited races and unlimited races per day.

Fair is probably the wrong word to use here...Reasonable, appropriate, sporting,... something else may be better
(fair does get a good knee jerk response though).

So a more open ended quesiton how about:
12 races in two days... Why?

Mark

The F18 does not have a limit on the number of races per day.

I went to a regatta last year about 4 hour drive each way and we had wind and only got 2 races (20min,30min)on Saturday. On sunday we had One race 30min. The total racing time was 1:20 with a cost of Entry 80.00, fuel 200.00 I don't think I will go next year. If the weather does not work out I can understand but the RC just did a bad job of running the races.

I think PU was just trying to get races in when he had good wind.

I think Marks question is a reasonable one.
I do think the 2 or 3 race limits are foolish.
Sit on the beach for a day or two and then go sail 2 races on a perfect day? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
The National events are being held to crown a champion and to promote the sport.
Sailing 7 races in a day becomes no fun and can drive away the bottom half of the fleet and maybe some youth.
When I have raced with my daughter at Nationals our goal was always to finish all the races. If I did that I felt that we would shake out mid pack(not bad at 16's).
I don't know that I could expect a teenager to stay out for 7 races in those conditions.
I'm thinking a 5 race maximum would still identify the best sailor and keep it fun and competitive for all.

I have said it many times.
The Nationals should crown a champion and make everyone else feel like one.

My own class doesn't regulate the number of races per day either and I think that to be a good decision, especially for far off and costly events like nationals and worlds where bad weather can deprive you of several days sailing.

However, I'm not signing up for 5 or more races a day during a whole week when singlehanding a spinnaker boat like the F16. I may well do on single string boats like the H14/H16 but not on an all out sport boat like the one mentioned above.

The biggest thrills we get overhere is taking H14 and H16 sailors along on F20's, F18's and F16's; especially when they BS that once you master a H14/H16 you can sail any catamaran. We have them begging for mercy before starting on the second lap of the first race.

Sort of illustrates the difference in racing a H16 and a modern spinnaker boat. And by God, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE !

Wouter

At the 2008 HNAC 17/18/Tigers we ran to the maximum races allowed in the SI's. 20 races.
For the Tiger Class a longer course was set. The RC ran a course 2 all day long, and our times were averaging about an hour and 15 minutes. This was in double trap strength winds. In the Tiger Class you are allowed instrumentation.(GPS) It was reported that each race the boat covered about 14 miles.
We ran no more than 5 races in any one day if I remember correctly. And by Wednesday I was feeling it. By Thursday I was showing it. However, on Friday we all dug deeper inside and pulled out some of the best racing of the week.

In preparation for the week long event many teams worked out, lost weight, and got ready. Everyone put time into their boats to make sure they were also up to the challenge.
We had teams capsize and blow through a sail, or bend a boom. But none of the boats failed to make a race due to poor maintanance issues. I had a trap line stop break while I was on the wire, and this caused me to eject from the boat. But we rigged up a short line and continued racing the day.
To me, this was all part of the experience. The training, the preparation, and the challenge of dealing with the unexpected.

It comes down to, can you AND your boat go the distance?
Long days will benifit the teams that have come prepared.

The Wave Nationals got in 18 races in three days last year. The races are shorter than most.., we shoot for about 30 minutes per race.
Everyone seems to enjoy it. Of course, Waves don't break down. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Rick

7 races are way too much. A normal race takes around 45-60 minutes and with general recalls, resetting of the course and waiting for all the boats to finish means at least 1.5 hour between each start. That means a very long day on the water, no fun! I prefer two races, lunch break at the beach, and then two more races. This gives you a SOCIAL LIFE at the regatta and that's important.

/hakan

On the work side of things, 7 races can beat a RC and mark/ rescue boats, support staff, etc. However, I've heard PU say it many times and I agree, "This is a NA (World) Champoinship people should be prepared to race at that level."
People are competing to be the BEST H16 sailor in North America, that's a pretty big deal.

Now if it were a div or fleet race, 7 is probably too much.

J

As usual, Pat is brilliant... "The Nationals should crown a champion and make everyone else feel like one."

Hard to argue with that logic. Make everything about an event fall in line with this, and you're doing it right.

Not to say that's always an easy thing to do when the weather doesn't cooperate, but if you pay attention to what the sailors actually want, it's not that hard, either. (OK, now as long as no one brings up the 20s in Tampa...)

Mike

Yes it's fair but when you run seven or even six races in a day you are really beating people up and chasing away a lot of potential competitors at future championships. I think it's safe to say that this will not happen again.

I almost didn't remember to post this:

HTFU

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY3TfjOeuhM

Is the point of the event to crown an endurace champion or determine the best Hobie 16 team?

At some point you cross a line from one to the other.