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Nacra 5.7 Pointing ability #159046
11/03/08 02:01 AM
11/03/08 02:01 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 337
Arizona
AzCat Offline OP
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I raced my 5.7 last weekend and found that I ciuld not point anywhere close to most of the fleet. ie miracle 20, Nacra 5.8.
I understand that a boardless cat's cant point as high as cats w/ boards, but i'm talking about 15 degrees. If I tried to go even close to where they were going, I would be in a full luff.
I just added a new jib but my dacron main is 21 years old. It seems to be pretty full, even when I downhaul to my max(3 to 1 purchase). They were all carrying mylar mains. Is this the problem with my pointing?

Also, My new jib has a leech tensioner and a foot tensioner, how is this used? I assume it's only used downwind.



Auscat MKV 444 A class
NACRA I-20- 440/CATHATKA
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Re: Nacra 5.7 Pointing ability [Re: AzCat] #159054
11/03/08 06:06 AM
11/03/08 06:06 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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Sounds like you have jib slot issues.
A full main will close the slot and so will a leech line in the jib. The new jib will have a harder leech anyhow [which is a good thing] but there should be no need for any tension in the leech or foot lines, these are generally used to prolong the life of a dieing sail.
do you have leech telltails on the main - very important to get the main leech tension right which is vital to pointing.


Paul

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Re: Nacra 5.7 Pointing ability [Re: AzCat] #159059
11/03/08 06:43 AM
11/03/08 06:43 AM
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scooby_simon Offline
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Originally Posted by azcat
even when I downhaul to my max(3 to 1 purchase). They were all carrying mylar mains. Is this the problem with my pointing?



How much wind.

3:1 is nowhere near enough purchases if its windy!


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

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Re: Nacra 5.7 Pointing ability [Re: scooby_simon] #159066
11/03/08 08:14 AM
11/03/08 08:14 AM
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France
pepin Offline
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Scooby, this is an old school nacra 5.7 with dacron sails. Lots of downhaul won't curve the heavy ally mast like it does on our fancy tapered carbon masts. More downhaul is only going to stretch the old sail more and more, with minimum effect on the draft.

To flatten the sail on those keep the diamond tension low, rotate the mast and it will bend on the smaller axis when you pull the main *tight*. 3:1 downhaul purchase is sufficient. Now if the main is changed to something more solid and less stretchy you try to can bend the mast on its major axis with a downhaul, but the main needs to be reinforced first, the spreaders need to be swept back a bit (I don't think they are tunable on a 5.7), and the diamond tension needs to be tighter.

To answer the original question, assuming that the problem is due to the new flat jib and the baggy main narrowing the slot, you should move your jib sheet pulley back: it will tension the foot of the jib more, and the leech less, opening the slot between the main and jib.

Re: Nacra 5.7 Pointing ability [Re: pepin] #159078
11/03/08 09:02 AM
11/03/08 09:02 AM
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Posts: 168
San Diego
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hokie Offline
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Make sure your weight is forward, the Leeward bow needs to be be more than 1/2 way submerged.



Re: Nacra 5.7 Pointing ability [Re: hokie] #159083
11/03/08 09:29 AM
11/03/08 09:29 AM
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Posts: 890
Dunedin Causeway, FL
David Parker Offline
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Quote
Make sure your weight is forward, the Leeward bow needs to be be more than 1/2 way submerged.


YES, YES, and YES again!

I've been sailing boardless cats forever and this is the KEY to pointing high. Every puff that lifts the hull, gently point higher and step forward hard, driving the bows down. Your bows are your boards, not your skegs. If you consider your bows instead of your skegs you will realize a momentary burst of speed and 5 degrees of lift. As the puff/lift fades, be sure to foot off back to the old line, ease weight back again, but do NOT pinch. In fact, you can foot off just before the power fades and you'll scoot like a spit-out watermellon seed! You keep doing this "S" pattern up and forward, then foot and weight-back over and over. NEVER sail casually, always be vigilant of EVERY puff, however tiny, to make up height. You're lacking native lift but can make it up with smart boat handling. The board guys are lazy, they bought their height. You have to earn yours. I love walking over a lazy board boat.

This will not work with angled back bows like a Dart and you'll pitch a Hobie 16 doing it. The more vertical the bows the better. On a SuperCat with bows 30 inches high the effect is dramatic! On my SuperCat 17 I had to add 24 inches to my tiller extension so I could trap far forward of the front beam going up wind solo. Look at the lee bow in my avatar on my Mystere 5.0XL. Bows DOWN.

I just switched to a Nacra 5.0 and sure enough, it works GREAT on this boat, too. Light air or heavy, its the secret sauce!

Re: Nacra 5.7 Pointing ability [Re: pepin] #159107
11/03/08 11:45 AM
11/03/08 11:45 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
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scooby_simon Offline
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Originally Posted by pepin
Scooby, this is an old school nacra 5.7 with dacron sails. Lots of downhaul won't curve the heavy ally mast like it does on our fancy tapered carbon masts. More downhaul is only going to stretch the old sail more and more, with minimum effect on the draft.

To flatten the sail on those keep the diamond tension low, rotate the mast and it will bend on the smaller axis when you pull the main *tight*. 3:1 downhaul purchase is sufficient. Now if the main is changed to something more solid and less stretchy you try to can bend the mast on its major axis with a downhaul, but the main needs to be reinforced first, the spreaders need to be swept back a bit (I don't think they are tunable on a 5.7), and the diamond tension needs to be tighter.

To answer the original question, assuming that the problem is due to the new flat jib and the baggy main narrowing the slot, you should move your jib sheet pulley back: it will tension the foot of the jib more, and the leech less, opening the slot between the main and jib.


Must be a very soft sail; we were using 8:1's on Dacron Tornado mainsails!


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Nacra 5.7 Pointing ability [Re: scooby_simon] #159121
11/03/08 01:27 PM
11/03/08 01:27 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 976
France
pepin Offline
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pepin  Offline
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France
Your tornado sail was 21 yo? My 5.2 sail is at least 20yo, and I can tell you, more downhaul doesn't help at all...

Re: Nacra 5.7 Pointing ability [Re: pepin] #159167
11/03/08 03:37 PM
11/03/08 03:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Originally Posted by pepin
Your tornado sail was 21 yo? My 5.2 sail is at least 20yo, and I can tell you, more downhaul doesn't help at all...


Nope; good point!


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Nacra 5.7 Pointing ability [Re: AzCat] #159176
11/03/08 03:50 PM
11/03/08 03:50 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 266
UK
Cheshirecatman Offline
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Pictures whilst sailing would help. Can you get someone on a rib to take some photos from various angle when sailing to windward. It is important to get mast set up to the luff of the sail as most lift is generated in this area. With an old dacron sail the boltrope may well have shrunk and require a degree of downhaul just to achieve a base setting.
The 5.7 is boomless and does not have the adjustable clew traveler of other Nacras right? Which hole on the clewboard was being used? What were the conditions? How tired is the sail?
Best bet is get a local sailmaker or experienced catsailor to check it out. You could spend an age changing one thing after another when expert help could have it sorted quickly. There is nothing so annoying as a cat not performing.

Cheshirecatman

Re: Nacra 5.7 Pointing ability [Re: David Parker] #159192
11/03/08 04:56 PM
11/03/08 04:56 PM

A
andrewscott
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andrewscott
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A



Originally Posted by David Parker
I just switched to a Nacra 5.0 and sure enough, it works GREAT on this boat, too. Light air or heavy, its the secret sauce!


I think someone's been hitting the sauce... and it ain a secret!

Re: Nacra 5.7 Pointing ability [Re: scooby_simon] #159223
11/03/08 08:08 PM
11/03/08 08:08 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 337
Arizona
AzCat Offline OP
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Arizona
Wind was 7 to 12 mph. This cat dosnt ever wake up till after 12(mph). I will try to get some pics or video next time I am out.
The main has a huge pocket, or at least it seems that way to me. I have looked up the mast and I think I am getting about 4-5" of bend when downhauled.


Auscat MKV 444 A class
NACRA I-20- 440/CATHATKA
Re: Nacra 5.7 Pointing ability [Re: TEAMVMG] #159224
11/03/08 08:11 PM
11/03/08 08:11 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 337
Arizona
AzCat Offline OP
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Arizona
I dont have leech tells, I will add them. It does seem that i have slot issues. Again maby a new mylar main is in order. I just dont want to do it for the wrong reasons, and if the boat still wont perform, why bother.


Auscat MKV 444 A class
NACRA I-20- 440/CATHATKA
Re: Nacra 5.7 Pointing ability [Re: pepin] #159226
11/03/08 08:17 PM
11/03/08 08:17 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 337
Arizona
AzCat Offline OP
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I dont have mast rotation , but could easily add this if it will solve the problem.
Diamond tension is low, I can press the wires to the mast 12" above the adjusters.
While racing I tried the jib sheeting both front and rear of the track. not much diff.


Auscat MKV 444 A class
NACRA I-20- 440/CATHATKA
Re: Nacra 5.7 Pointing ability [Re: AzCat] #159228
11/03/08 08:20 PM
11/03/08 08:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 168
San Diego
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hokie Offline
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Originally Posted by azcat
and if the boat still wont perform, why bother.

it won't be the boat's fault



Re: Nacra 5.7 Pointing ability [Re: AzCat] #159231
11/03/08 08:24 PM
11/03/08 08:24 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 168
San Diego
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hokie Offline
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San Diego
what is your mast rake like?



Re: Nacra 5.7 Pointing ability [Re: David Parker] #159232
11/03/08 08:27 PM
11/03/08 08:27 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 337
Arizona
AzCat Offline OP
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Arizona
I do keep the weight forward, usually till the bow is is averaging about 4-5"out of the water, I will try more s turns as you describe. This boat really dosnt come alive till the wind is +12mph. after that it really wakes up but I am still not happy with the pointing.
It's a very clean boat and I hate to take my chances with an upgrade to a 5.8, The lake that I sail on (Lake Pleasant Az) is very rocky and the winds are very flukey. Boardless is beautifill. one les thing to do when landing and the wind does a 90 and goes from 5 to 15mph.
Thank all of you for your input.


Auscat MKV 444 A class
NACRA I-20- 440/CATHATKA
Re: Nacra 5.7 Pointing ability [Re: hokie] #159254
11/03/08 10:29 PM
11/03/08 10:29 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 337
Arizona
AzCat Offline OP
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Arizona
Mast is straight up, no rake. So how close to daggered boats should I be pointing? Not counting the "S" turns.
I came in 4th in a fleet of 8 boats. This was my first race ever, I guess that's not to shabby. Portsmouth scoring. But the 5.8 and miracle were so far ahead of me and were pointing so high, it was sick.

Last edited by azcat; 11/03/08 10:36 PM.

Auscat MKV 444 A class
NACRA I-20- 440/CATHATKA
Re: Nacra 5.7 Pointing ability [Re: AzCat] #159258
11/03/08 11:20 PM
11/03/08 11:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 757
japan
erice Offline
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japan
Originally Posted by azcat

The main has a huge pocket, or at least it seems that way to me.


do you have the foam filled and tapered nacra battens?


eric e
1982 nacra 5.2 - 2158
2009 weta tri - 294
Re: Nacra 5.7 Pointing ability [Re: erice] #159262
11/04/08 12:07 AM
11/04/08 12:07 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 337
Arizona
AzCat Offline OP
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Yes, foam filled tapered battens. I replaced three of them with new ones, the others are original.They are tied into the pockets just tight enough to take the wrinkles out of the pockets.


Auscat MKV 444 A class
NACRA I-20- 440/CATHATKA
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