HA HA

Can we say failure to read the SI?

"You may paddle at anytime.¨

However, paddles are not on the required equipment list.

Again, HA HA

Mike

WHY would the PRO want to get into the position of making a decision on the proper number of safety boats required as a condition for running the race?

As you note... you rarely have enough mark boats... much less safety boats. PU authored a policy for mark and safety boats , where to place them on the course, how many for how many boats etc for a SAFE REGATTA in a Hobie hotline. I have never been to a regatta that would have met his standard. As an internationally recognized authority on catamaran race management you could argue that his article defined the standard.... Failing to meet his standard would be negligent on the part of the OA and PRO. We would never have a race!

To me, this is another well intentioned idea that is just wrong. Again, you undercut the skippers sole responsibility to decide on racing or not when you inject this safety boat factor in your decisions on race management.

What happens if you loose a powerboat on the course... now you are below "your safety level"... are you to cancel racing for the day?

Finally, the worst aspect of a safety boat standard is that you shift the burden of safety from ALL the racing sailors to the Safety boats themselves.!

Dave has the right idea... He is following the RR of sailing. He stops at a crash and checks on safety.... AND he expects other skippers to Stop and check crashes where appropriate. The game awards redress for that time spent not racing. ...

If you think that a safety boat will be along to check out the crash and you can just continue racing... not good!

Is race management training changing this firewall?

If I'm not mistaken 10 years ago the 'you can paddle the whole way if you want to' wasn't in the SI. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

jeeze has it been that long? You're old...

I think my first one was 2002?

Mark,

A PRO doesn't WANT to get in this position, he is REQUIRED to once he volunteers for the job.

Have you raced on a course run by PU? What he wrote was indeed the standard, and he has expressed his concern numerous times at the lack of support in this area. Of course, he is a realist, and makes the most out of what is given, otherwise, you're right, many times there would be no races.

I disagree with your assessment of undercutting a skipper responsibility. It is the responsibility of the PRO and OA to provide the racing. It is the responsibility of the skipper to sail or not. If the PRO and OA cancel the racing, what has been undercut? The skipper can still go on the water (usually, sometimes the OA won't allow that).

"What happens if you loose a powerboat on the course... now you are below "your safety level"... are you to cancel racing for the day?"

That may very well be the case if the conditions warrant. This is a very serious issue, for all the reasons listed (lawyers, etc.). Not to mention, we're talking about people's LIVES here.

No one is talking about shifting the burden solely to the safety boats. The burden is shared with the competitors, and anyone else on the water for that matter.

Race management training reinforces the lessons that we all learn on the water. Sometimes, the best answer is to be extremely generous with redress.

Mike

Yeah, but I have a boat, and you know what else... I sail it. It's been a while since you got a kick in nuts for not having a boat. See you Friday tough guy.

Should be fun...

I got a carbon reinforced cup for Christmas

Yes, PU does have a bottom line. He refused to follow the OA's direction to run the Miami OCR races in the ocean. He told the idiot Gary Bodie that with one cruising cat and three 18 to 22 foot solid powerboats for 32 Tornado's that he was not going out to the ocean. Quite a fight between the two. Even so... he was far below his published standards for a cat race at the bottom of Key Biscayne 8 miles from the launch for 32 boats.

I think we will just disagree on this one.

I think a bright line standard is far better for sailboat racing then the moral and legal calculus that you must manage.

I have two bright line Rules.

Rule 1
The RC and mark boats are there to to run races for the regatta. If it's not safe for them to be out there... sorry no more racing. Do not factor them into your personal decision to race or not.

Rule 2
Saftey is everyone's concern.

"Rule 1.1 A boat or competitor shall give all possible help to any person or vessel in danger."

no standards to get screwed over on, no numbers of safety boats to racing boats to meet, no tough choices for the PRO to make.

As the skipper... I have no doubt who makes the call 100 percent of the time.

I must say a big "THIS" to what Mike's posted. The decision to race / not race falls upon the PRO and their experience and common sense. That's why the best PROs are racers. They have the judgement to know when enough is enough.

Chase boats: The HCA Championship Event Manual (orginally authored by PU, revised by me last spring) does not require a specific number of mark / safety boats, but recommends a minimum ratio of 1 mark boat to every 10 boats racing. We've been fortunate enough to be able to meet that standard on most major events. Of course if the conditions are mild, then these boats sit around. I can tell you for a fact that when the thunderstorms came through on the H-20 NAs in South Dakota last year, 5 mark boats weren't enough for the 35 boats we had racing. Things can go to hell very quickly and the PRO has to anticipate it.


Re: Waivers: I said it before - a waiver is just a speed bump on the way to court. The presence of one will not keep you from being sued. Jack - US Sailing forbids the types of waivers you posted. Rule 82 (a US Sailing prescription) does not allow Hold Harmless or Indemnification agreements as a condition of entry.

Matt
Do any other dinghy classes have such guidelines?
I don't know of any. I know the A class and Tornado's don't have such guidelines.

While it's great that you get the requisite number of mark boats for NA's... the safety standards can be no less for a weekend regatta.

Don't your guidelines create a defacto safety standard that would be used to demonstrate that the local regatta safety is sub standard?

Hi Matt,

Not sure if you're thinking that I didn't say that somewhere in these piles of posts. I definitely meant all of that.

Yes, the PRO sets up races or not. No, no one is forced to race. It is the decision of the sailors alone as to go out (and to know when to come in).

At every event that I run with an iffy forecast or light support boats, at the skippers meeting I make no secrets. I basically say this at the skippers meeting:

"This is the forecast... These are the support boats... We will reward very generous redress to boats that assist one another. If you don't think you can handle it, please don't go out. If you do go out and find out that you were wrong, please come back in."

I think there are people on this forum that feel that if a PRO runs races, some folks would feel pressured into racing that probably shouldn't. This becomes a gray area of influence that the PRO can have on the event. Not saying it's a liability issue, but I'm not a lawyer.

I would also like to thank everyone for not suing me after the lightning incident last year. Two PDAs on the water, a laptop on the beach, nothing. Then BANG! as boats were finishing. Gotta love lakes. Priceless...

Mike

On your first question, I can't think of any OD classes offhand that are as attuned to race management and event coordination as are the Hobie Classes. A lot of classes have "Event Manuals" (the Tornado equivalent is Appendix C to their class rules). Whether they get down to the details of how many boats and what equipment they should be carrying like the HCA manual does - I don't know of any. (But then again, my knowledge is limited to the OD classes I've run - Melges 24, Ultimate 20, Thistles, Force 5, Tornados and a few others.)

On you second question, it's a pretty low standard. If you have a weather mark boat, a pin / gate boat and a relatively mobile committee boat, then you're set for up to 34 boats - which would accomodate the vast majority of weekend regattas these days.

Like I said - to a great extent it's up to the PRO to use his judgement on whether they feel they can handle the conditions with the resources they have at hand. If all your mark boats are tied up assisting boats in trouble, you're not running races anymore because you can't set/move marks.

Matt, we overlapped...

Good points here.

Mike

If someone even uttered the word 'sue' in regards to the PRO sending or not sending racers onto the water at any regatta that my chase boats, marks, comittee boat, anchors, rodes, GPS's, VHF's or any other Surf City gear was at. That **** would be on ebay the second I got home, and I would never sponsor or support another sailboat race again, ever.

Because just down the line from the PRO there's the mark boat guy that could be dragged into court, and the guy that owns the boat etc, etc, etc.

J

Ah yes... one more issue of PRO responsibility. When you have mark boats assisting sailors with their personal crisis.... the rest of fleet goes without.

It is certainly a judgment call but it seems better to say the PRO and RC should not move one inch off the standard that they are to run races AND the standard of "Safety is everyone's concern".

Having sat through a long delay at CRAM's catfight years ago while they assisted a boat to the beach. The question on the beach was.. What are the responsibilities of the RC here.

Should they have towed the boat to the shore...(took an hour)
take the crew on board and called SeaTow for the boat for him,
anchored the boat and towed it in after the racing.

Mike's comments about the message he delivers on the beach is key. He is managing expectations and thereby minimizing the upset. (If he says... you will be anchored until assistance to the beach is available.. you can't complain)
So... if those power boats are MARK BOATS you get one message...(Oh... they are there to run the race) If you call them CRASH boats ... you have a different expectation. Call them Safety boats... quite another... Heck... you could expect that they have a trained safety person on the boat able to dive and assist a trapped sailor (NOT Likely)

I still think the Hobie class associations are out on a limb of their own making with the published guidelines and definitions (my view a STANDARD) .... and they are all by themselves out there (I think PU was much more assertive in the article that I read.)

Mark, I don't know what planet you're on with this last posting. I have been at an event where someone actually died, and another where someone was literally saved from drowning under a tramp (CPR was needed on the turtled hull).

If any idiot actually complained that stopping the racing to help one of our friends STAY ALIVE is unfair because they're not getting enough racing for their money, I would have a hard time forcing myself not to waste my time with the Rule 69 hearing just to drag him through the mud.

Is it the PRO's responsibility to protect everyone from everything? Of course not. But you can't fault me for being human at your expense, in the hopes of having our friends literally live to see another race.

Now, if it's just a case of hardware breakdown, I agree, if the people are safe, get the boat out of harm's way and try to free up a resource (or find an alternative) to drag them in when it's convenient.

If I don't have safety boats, I say that. I say "We have 3 mark boats, no safety boats."

US SAILING does expect us to employ risk assessment and safety plans. Safety boats most certainly need to have swimmers on them. First aid kits, evacuation routes (to meet an ambulance ashore), etc. are also expected.

You don't have to personally agree with this stuff for it to be expected by those we serve, or for it to be the right thing to do.

Mike

Matt,

I see that you are correct as usual. I am curious, however, as to why?

I agree about the "speed bump" reference, but it does provide perceived protection, at the very least. It is intereseting that different sports have different methods to protect officials and participants.

Yo Mike... I did not say or imply this. I said there are two principles... Safety first and the RC is there to run races.
Of course if safety was an issue with a flipped boat the race goes out the window. We agree.

The example I used was of an equipment failure and the RC sliding down that slippery slope and towing the guy to the beach. We agree!

I assert that the distinctions between mark boats, safety boats and crash boats are not widely understood by the racers. The real problem is that expectations of the fleet are not aligned with what most RC's are able to do. Some people think that their entry fee comes with a rescue/tow service! aka they provide crash boats ... right!

Remember the thread is about the limits of RC responsibility or the extent of their liability.

You mentioned the idea that sailors on this board feel pressure to go racing when the PRO sends the fleet out...
That as PRO, you are giving the good house keeping seal of approval. I agree with your assessment and agree it's a problem. It is a misunderstanding of the PRO liability/ responsibility and each skippers responsibility.

When you say.
"I say "We have 3 mark boats, no safety boats."

I bet 90% of the fleet thinks the terms are interchangeable.

I know the guys on mark boats at my local races are NOT going to meet your safety standard.
"Safety boats most certainly need to have swimmers on them. First aid kits, evacuation routes (to meet an ambulance ashore), etc. are also expected."

Again, the result is that people don't understand the PRO's liability/responsibility and fully understand their responsibility as skipper.

I argue that the original standard that the RC runs races with Mark boats to manage the race best serves the racers by being very clear. If the mark boat goes to assist a flipped boat... he is part of the standard "Everyone is concerned about safety"

The PRO is not running a crash boat service... the PRO is not running a safety boat service (unless you announce it).

Using my point of view, you don't get yourself into a bind where you are down one boat and now must decide... Is it safe to continue. If we only have two boats... are we safe to go with 30 boats?

I think it is relevant to note that NO OTHER CLASSES are setting out guidelines (standards in my view.



The point of this discussion is to be clear on what is expected.... all around. I take a conservative view of what the RC's responsibilities are... Yours is a bit more liberal.


Take Care
Mark

Thanks for the clarification Mark.

I think we agree on all of this, except that I am under the impression that the RC bears more responsibility for safety than you do. Maybe I've been to too many seminars, or maybe I've been around too many bad situations.

At the end of the day, when I'm out there, I feel responsible and will act accordingly. I am very good at what I do. If I have to blow off a race, and it turns out to be a "false alarm" I know that I can recover and still get good racing in. This is not bragging, it takes a lot of work, patience and communication skills to pull this off. Most sailors will never this when done correctly.

Mike