| Re: Rating rant
[Re: dacarls]
#166623 01/29/09 03:23 PM 01/29/09 03:23 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | And Another Thing to Overcome Common Logic: NOW- Guess what happens if there are an ODD number of legs: A-cats smoke 'em, and the F18 guys cry, moan and complain. Don't be a hater.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: Rating rant
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#166647 01/29/09 06:15 PM 01/29/09 06:15 PM |
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,528 Looking for a Job, I got credi... scooby_simon Hull Flying, Snow Sliding.... |
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Posts: 3,528 Looking for a Job, I got credi... | IMO, We should spend the money and get the Nacra F17 rated (in all of its configurations) so that SCHRSS and Texel have accurate data and then evaluate the rating table from a world wide perspective based on experience of the top sailors in the major classes. Decide if their is problem and then what to do about it.
Yes please; I've been waiting 9 months now...............
F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD I also talk sport here | | | Re: Rating rant
[Re: scooby_simon]
#166660 01/29/09 07:45 PM 01/29/09 07:45 PM |
Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 118 Sail Sand Point, Seattle mike220
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Posts: 118 Sail Sand Point, Seattle | Here are the results from the Area L Alter Qualifier from September of 2008. Including times and wind conditions. Unfortunately the winds were light most of the time. But when it did pick up to 8-10 a couple of times the F18s began to show thier stuff Mostly there were A Cats and F18s there. We had 17 participants. Check out the link it will show the info. BBOD Regatta 2008
Mike Hensel Hobie Tiger
| | | Re: Rating rant
[Re: mike220]
#166665 01/29/09 08:07 PM 01/29/09 08:07 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | But when it did pick up to 8-10 a couple of times the F18s began to show thier stuff The wind speed ratings group Beaufort 2 with Beaufort 3. This decision was made years ago when boats like the Hobie 16, 117 and 18 behaved pretty much alike through the wind ranges. It was WAY before Light weight boats like the A Class and Spinnaker boats were popular. One issue that you highlight is how non linear the actual performance is for these two boats in this wind range. What is needed for a better yardstick table is separate ratings for Beaufort 2 from Beaufort 3. This is tough because you need 100 races of data turned in from top of the fleet sailors racing each other in the wind ranges.
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Rating rant
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#166668 01/29/09 08:35 PM 01/29/09 08:35 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | But when it did pick up to 8-10 a couple of times the F18s began to show thier stuff The wind speed ratings group Beaufort 2 with Beaufort 3. This decision was made years ago when boats like the Hobie 16, 117 and 18 behaved pretty much alike through the wind ranges. It was WAY before Light weight boats like the A Class and Spinnaker boats were popular. One issue that you highlight is how non linear the actual performance is for these two boats in this wind range. What is needed for a better yardstick table is separate ratings for Beaufort 2 from Beaufort 3. This is tough because you need 100 races of data turned in from top of the fleet sailors racing each other in the wind ranges. Where did you get that "100" figure? Or were you exaggerating to make a point?
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Rating rant
[Re: Jake]
#166681 01/29/09 11:07 PM 01/29/09 11:07 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
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Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | The PN software is written in Fortran. A near dead language 25 years ago... (remember the y2K death watch) it has a limit to the number of variables it can handle.
All data is pre screened for being an outlier... IE the computed rating is 10 % faster or slower then the current rating... MIND YOU... the data is computed in the wind speed reported for the race.
The number of ratings used to calculate the rating is 100 data points in EACH wind speed. (If you did not roll in new data and kick out old data... the average would never change.)
Beaufort 2 data is tabulated separately from Beaufort 3 data and if memory serves for each wind speed but so far... the data don't reflect the performance difference and so 2 and 3 are lumped together. Again... it's not just A class and F18's to consider....the Hobie 16, 17 and 18 performance are still not going to vary much over the B 2-3 range.
This analysis was done a couple of years ago... So Darline may have more data with light boats, spin boats and secondary yardstick boats to evaluate. It may have changed since then.... but since the Area L results only contribute 6 or 7 data points....AND the race did not have a well sailed secondary yardstick boat.... eg a hobie 16 Its tough!
The DPN rating is weighted to the B4 rating and is some formula of the 4 wind ratings.... (new boats B4 = DPN)
So... if you don't include an accurate wind speed for the race then your data becomes difficult to use.
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Rating rant
[Re: scooby_simon]
#166717 01/30/09 08:25 AM 01/30/09 08:25 AM |
Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 207 couldn't resist it Codblow
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Posts: 207 couldn't resist it | Quote - Scooby
"[/quote]" To answer Codblow (again) SCHRS has to make an assumption about crew weight, thus we use the worldwide average that is 75kg for an adult. Some will be lighter, some will be more.
We CANNOT implement a "actual crew weight" element as this would:
A, mean at EVERY EVENT and every race you have to weigh EVERYONE and re-calc the rating - it would be impossible. B, Protests on weight of the crew anyone? - another nightmare C, Inaccurate or differing scales? Had a big curry the night before?
We will not be implementing a "Crew weight" based rating element. End of story. [/quote]"
Scooby I didn't ask any questions , nor sought any answers from you .
I'm well aware as I said of SCHRS stance on anomalies , and don't need things rammed down my throat as if I'm some sorta half wit !!!
SCHRS is your rule , your running it , good , I can live with that .(and thanks for doing it too - schrs has certainly improved cat racing )
Any measurement rule created will have anomolies in it - thats why you will always get bandits and dogs , whatever you do .just look at monohull racing and the shed load of money spent on rating rules the computing power put into it and decades of developement .
All I was trying to say , with the new RYA PY system we have a unique opportunity to merge the systems together which could iron these things out .
I'm not talking of weight of sailors here.
But it is concievable that as time progresses and the rya py improved and quicker database develops , we could - shock , horror, god forbid , look at personal handicaps , for club racing , we all know what a can o worms in the past this has been and a crock of sh~t , but, could be an answer to dismal turnouts in club racing throughout uk.
goes without saying champion ship and event racing would still be on boat rating under whatever system
(can't believe I just said that !) Still look at golf , works for them ,
Last edited by Codblow; 01/30/09 08:27 AM.
| | | Re: Rating rant
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#166721 01/30/09 08:55 AM 01/30/09 08:55 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | The PN software is written in Fortran. A near dead language 25 years ago... (remember the y2K death watch) it has a limit to the number of variables it can handle.
All data is pre screened for being an outlier... IE the computed rating is 10 % faster or slower then the current rating... MIND YOU... the data is computed in the wind speed reported for the race.
The number of ratings used to calculate the rating is 100 data points in EACH wind speed. (If you did not roll in new data and kick out old data... the average would never change.)
Beaufort 2 data is tabulated separately from Beaufort 3 data and if memory serves for each wind speed but so far... the data don't reflect the performance difference and so 2 and 3 are lumped together. Again... it's not just A class and F18's to consider....the Hobie 16, 17 and 18 performance are still not going to vary much over the B 2-3 range.
This analysis was done a couple of years ago... So Darline may have more data with light boats, spin boats and secondary yardstick boats to evaluate. It may have changed since then.... but since the Area L results only contribute 6 or 7 data points....AND the race did not have a well sailed secondary yardstick boat.... eg a hobie 16 Its tough!
The DPN rating is weighted to the B4 rating and is some formula of the 4 wind ratings.... (new boats B4 = DPN)
So... if you don't include an accurate wind speed for the race then your data becomes difficult to use.
I thought it was actually Cobal that it was written in..but very similar regardless (I used to program both). It definitely needs updating and the statistical analysis could use some advancement. I have a lot of thoughts regarding this but will not waste my effort if you guys see fit to kill it.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Rating rant
[Re: Codblow]
#166724 01/30/09 08:59 AM 01/30/09 08:59 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | (can't believe I just said that !) Still look at golf , works for them ,
Please no! Golf handicaps are easily manipulated and often are! Let's not speak of this again.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: Rating rant
[Re: David Ingram]
#166747 01/30/09 10:35 AM 01/30/09 10:35 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | (can't believe I just said that !) Still look at golf , works for them ,
I want to race boats - not people. Please no! Golf handicaps are easily manipulated and often are! Let's not speak of this again.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Rating rant
[Re: Jake]
#166841 01/30/09 10:03 PM 01/30/09 10:03 PM |
Joined: Apr 2002 Posts: 805 Gainesville, FL 32607 USA dacarls
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 805 Gainesville, FL 32607 USA | Hey- Wouter is an Engineer. Lets hire him to Fix the Fortran! MWHHHaaaaa!
Dacarls: A-class USA 196, USA 21, H18, H16 "Nothing that's any good works by itself. You got to make the damn thing work"- Thomas Edison
| | | Re: Rating rant
[Re: wirebound]
#166961 02/01/09 12:43 PM 02/01/09 12:43 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California John Williams
Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California | To reiterate an earlier post, US SAILING administers the Portsmouth Yard Stick along with several other ratings systems for monohulls. The Portsmouth Committee has that continuing task, and Darline Hobock is the chair. Bob Curry is a member-at-large on that committee.
The ISAF Multihull Commission was approached last October about possibly taking over the administration of SCHRS, but the issue was not decided since a great deal more discussion is needed before making a decision.
The US Multihull Council has accepted an agenda item for the Spring meeting in Denver this March to discuss the rising tide of complaints about the Portsmouth ratings of small catamarans, and hear suggestions on how to improve things or make changes for the better.
John Williams
- The harder you practice, the luckier you get - Gary Player, pro golfer
After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
| | | Re: Rating rant
[Re: John Williams]
#166966 02/01/09 01:02 PM 02/01/09 01:02 PM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,525 pgp
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525 | "The US Multihull Council has accepted an agenda item for the Spring meeting in Denver . .. ." Glad to hear it. Addressing concerns is always positive. If a solution proves unattainable, at least you tried.
Pete Pollard Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
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