I'll take the risk of getting attacked here...

Isn't that why there's an RC and PC? If half (or more) of the fleet can't start, someone has to have the common sense to realize that's not a fair race and find a way to deal with it.

Mike

Mike,

Its the skipper's responsibility to decide whether or not his team can handle the conditions of the race.

Mike, it just isn't that kind of race. Mike W had a great quote when he was asked about the weather forecast one morning. He said he hadn't looked because it didn't matter. There's something different about the offshore races like the Tybee, Worrell and Texas... yes, legs have been canceled, but only when it was catastrophically impossible to get out. If there's a reasonable expectation that a skilled team can get out, the fleet is agreeing by entering the race that they will try too or take the penalty. Launching and landing through the surf is as integral to the race as rounding set marks is to buoy racing.

Last year was a perfect example. The forecast for the last leg was "ominous" as thunderheads were rolling through the course that day. Plus combined with the desolate GA coast, several teams decided that their personal safety was more important than completing that leg. Nobody thought less of them but the race still continued.

There was quite a debate as to whether or not to cancel the leg. Trey told me when he hit the beach -

"You know in video games, when you get to the end and you have to fight the boss?" <points towards the south> "That was the boss"

Well said, again, JW. You are one well written dude.

Tawd

I agree with John - it is a different kind of deal and I can understand how race sponsors would not like to see complete leg cancellations. There is a lot of technique to getting through the surf and some people are REALLY good at it - I'm learning. For an event held off the beach around some buoys it's one thing - but the surf is part of the course here and can be a big part of the race.

I didn't mean to imply I had any beef with that - I just thought 8 hours was a bit much of a penalty and makes the race less exciting.

If you scored the race by elapsed or corrected time by the day and awarded non starters points = to finisher + one. The ovewall race would remain competitive and shift the weighting from successful starting through surf and more towards sailing the course. If only one boat starts out of 20 then the rest of the fleet drop a point and the race continues. The successful (lucky or crazy) boat would then decide to race the leg and bank the single point or return to the beach and move on to the next leg with no change in fleet standings.

No.

Just...

No.

Trey - Sent you a PM

Geesh mark...you've got to quit making more sense 'cause I'm getting tired of agreeing with you.

Personally, I like the elapsed time scoring - it is interesting (for us anyway) to carry the time day to day and work out where we need to be over 40 to 60 hours of racing and the fact that it usually comes down to minutes on the last day...that's pretty exciting.

I'm kind of neutral on the idea of scoring by finish position w/ low point win but as it relates to penalties it makes things a WHOLE lot easier and less arbitrary. For instance, when a team misses a mark of the course and cuts a corner...BOOM...DNF for the day and their score is # of boats + 1 score...done. Boat breakdown or problem getting out of the surf...clean DNF for the day. As much as I like the elapsed time scoring from an interest and excitement perspective, I also don't like having drama surrounding arbitrary time penalties that may or may not seem fair to me. There has definitely been a history of a lot of drama surrounding these kind of penalties over the last several years. I would be willing to give it a shot....but here's the kink I haven't had time to consider...but do you consider allowing throwout? (I would think not - at least initially).

The one drawback I do see of low point scoring is that if you don't structure it correctly, the winner could potentially pack up on the last day (especially if there is a throwout) and I don't find that particularly interesting.

Mark,
Your missing the point here. The surf is an integral part of the race. Boat breakage is another integral part of this race. The amount of time you lose is a far more precision measurement than a point per place. You might have a boat problem that doesn't cost you a place ,yet puts you farther from the ones ahead of you and closer to the ones behind you.Boats hit the beach within seconds of each other.You'll see teams sailing there guts out until they are over the line to get that extra few seconds, whereas if you were way behind the boat ahead of you and way in front of the next boat behind you, all you have to do is play it safe and cover. That is what it would turn into after the first leg cover ,cover,cover.
Todd

p.s. Mark, How do you always seem to pick the illogical side of a discussion,that you have no experience with or a dog in the fight? You'd think occasionally you'd luck on to the rational side of a debate.

Todd makes a good point too...there is no just sail conservatively and "hold a comfortable position" in this race until ~maybe~ the last day. It is every day of "sail for everything you're worth" no matter where you are because every minute counts regardless of who's in front or behind you at that moment. You can be out there without a boat visible on either horizon (front or back) and it still matters.

Make it through the surf and then TURN BACK!?!?

No!

NOOOO!!!

I agree with JW (and others), and I do recall the examples where legs have been nuked. That's basically where I was going with that.

As for not leaving the beach and being scored as DNF, and calling that number of finishers plus one, that wouldn't be very fair if one crazy dude started and made it, he gets one less point than everyone else? Or, is that the point, having a less intrusive way to discourage people from going out when it's dicey?

Mike

If you do a throwout then only the races completed should be considered for a throw, DNF's, DNS's and DSQ's should not be throwable. It's an adventure race, you make a naviagation error you pay, you break down, you pay, you just get tired and bail that day... you pay.

But at the end of the day, it's the teams that have paid to play that should and will make the call! As far as I'm concerned this is your deal and no matter what you decided I will follow the race the way it makes the most sense to me. I look forward to reading about it. I just wish there was more content after you all bust out, I find myself working most of the day and it bums me out.

I think a 2 hour + last place time is more than adequate for DNF or a 4 hour + last place time for a DNS that leg is more than fair. I don't want points. It encourages people to sit on the beach. I don't think thats the spirit of the rule. I don't want the same thing that happens in regattas where the winners wont sail the last races of the day because they have it in the bank. I HATE THAT and wish it would be more strongly discouraged.

I agree the 8 hour is harsh. It was a leftover from the 1000 mile race in which it wouldn't be impossible to climb out of.

[/quote]

Now you opened a completely different can of worms there! IMHO, the 20 doesn't have an advantage getting through the surf...in fact, I believe it to be quite the contrary due to the huge fat bows on the 20 really taking a big hit when they try to punch through a wave.
[/quote]


Jake,

I think the F18 would have a harder time getting through the surf. The hulls are wider than the N20, the hulls are shorter than the I20 and sail plan is smaller. The only advantage I can see is the big flat transoms on the F18 might slow it down when the wave is pushing it backwards.

The only problem with the shorter penalty for not sailing a leg would be if the top teams had some problems later in the race and one of the teams that did not sail a leg won. If you were in the lead and sailed all the legs and had a ripped spin on the last leg and lost the lead to one of the teams that did not sail the whole race. I can here it now "he did not even sail the whole race and still one".

As far as the corrected time for over all Tybee winner the F18 and N20 are not equal boats they both have there strengths and weaknesses. The race has all kinds of wind conditions upwind, downwind, reach, light air, heavy air. When we sailed the Steeple Chase a couple of years ago on the F18 in high winds we did pretty good upwind against the N20 but when we turned to go down wind the F18 just kept pitchpoling and the N20 sailed on with out any problems the other F18 with us had the same problems. If I had an N20 that is the boat I would be using, it is a much easier boat to sail downwind in big air. If JC was sailing a N20 vs a F18 do you think he would have a better chance of winning? I do and if you think he does then you think the N20 has a better chance of winning.

Tad,

Bla, Bla about sponsors and all the money you are spending. You can just go buy a first place trophy and save a lot of money. My point being I think most of us do the race to have fun and because we like the sport if I looked at all the money I spent on sailing it would just scare me. I sail because I love to and if I win it is great to. Sponsors don't care if you win they just want good coverage and a professional looking team that represents them.

Easy now, Velocity Sailing has some core issues with spending the amount of money we're talking of spending on a broken system (Portsmouth for Tybee). Most sponsors don't care, but some do. Though we don't do this race because of the first place prize, not being able to reach that prize because of handicap bull$&!t is quite disheartening.

Dave,

I don't disagree with you on much of your statements. In fact, I completely agree that either the F18 or the 20 might have an advantage on any given day due to the wind speed and direction. I don't want to "win" a race that way almost as much as I don't want to "lose" a race that way. It's for the same reason I don't expect to race 10 N20's against 10 F17s under handicap when we go to a Nacra North Americans - handicap racing just isn't a premier way to race because it is inherently inaccurate and worse-so when applied to a distance event.

You guys have to stop making me sound like Ding.

And technically speaking, they do own a type of "controlling stock" in the race (if there were such a thing) with 25% of the boats falling under their team!