Mitch, what was the wind strength at the Aus Natls? In medium wind (to me that's 10-15 kts.) I might give it a try. Also, was the wind -steady- or gusty? That makes a big difference too. I sail on an inland lake where 10 knot gusts and 30 degree windshifts are common. Over at Gulfport where I go to race, they get alot of the same type wind. Out in the open ocean or in a large bay, you might get a smoother more consistant wind, that helps when going solo on the wire.

I may trap solo under spi when I have T-foils but I don't, so that can be the cause of our disagreement.



Almost never, that is true yes.

I have the same experience on my own Taipan F16 as well as the VWM Blade F16 by a friend. In both cases, me getting out on the wire bounds up the boat. I guess my 85-90 kg frame is just to much in addition to the other already trapping out.

Last year we did some testing (Ashby sails from easly 2006) and I kid you not. We were both faster and pointed higher with only one of us on the wire (upwind) and the other hiking out.

But please note that we sailed at typically 155-165 kg (they heavy end) and that the sails were cut for 140 kg on his boat and 150 kg on my own boat. There is however something wrong with my mainsail and it hooks too much up top when I pull the leach really tight. So this may give some cause to my experiences.

Wouter

I don't know about that Wouter. At Tradewinds this year, during a Thursday tune up session, Andi and I were double trapping upwind in 20 knots and keeping on pace with Dave Ingram's Infusion for a long time upwind. We were side by side, both boats double trapping and sailing on one hull. Lots of downhaul on too. That's with about 350lbs. on the wire on the Blade.

When we turned downwind, we were not quite as fast, and he was going a little deeper but neither were traping.

I think the longer waterline on the F18 and more volume in the bows of the Infusion helped him do that as we were stuffing into the waves backs which slows you down.

Now, had I been Uni, I would NOT have even considered trapping in those conditions, downwind, and I'm pretty sure he would have left me going upwind too.

But, I just remmebered you have the shorter Taipan type daggerboards, so that will effect the hull flying too. I've got the deeper, skinny boards, and the hull comes up very early compared to the Taipan boards.

At least that has been my observation when racing against the guys with the short, wide boards.

Sailing fast is about boat control. Weight placment and sail trim a huge on the 16. My comment on downwind sailing fast is to concentrate on the weight placement. Note this includes trapping if the conditions warrant (and your skill in driving is sufficient to make it pay) There has to be eneough wind to make it pay to get out on the wire otherwise you are just sailing farther. It is not a generic statement that getting out on the wire is faster than not.

Note the A cat guys do not sit in the middle of the boat in anything but a certain wind strength, they are moving around a lot. I have also witnessed Ashby get out on the trap down wind on his A when he needed to to cover his position on the course.

I found an "oldie but goodie" featuring the Spitfires, you have to go all the way to 6 minutes and 20 seconds into the video to see the first real pitchpole, and I'm sure a lot of you have seen this already, but we do have some new guys in the class that might not have seen this yet.

Even though the 3 Spits. are just out playing around for a photo shoot, there is a lot of good information to be learned by watching this video closely. A picture is worth a thousand words and all that.

So, stick it out to 6:20 and then all you 20 and 18 foot boat sailors will see what I'm talking about when I say a 16 foot hull will go under much easier when you bear away in a puff.

And, let me say this, I have crewed on board a Spitfire, it has a LOT more volume in the bows than a Blade. You would not have survived nearly as long as these guys did on a Blade in similar conditions. I'm not saying a Blade is slower, I'm saying, as Matt said above, it's about boat control. On the Blade, you get your butt in, bear it off, get the bows up and PLANE in the puffs, rather than try to do it on one hull from the wire. That will allow you to go deeper (towards C mark), just as fast, and NOT go swimming.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTysBVAY6II

And you had the Glaser Alter Cup mainsail (or same design) ?

As I wrote in an earlier posting. That was the only F16 on which (in my personal experience) double trapping upwind payed.

It is one reason why I value the Glaser suit of sails so highly. It seems to have struck the exact right balance between power and speed.

And you are right on the boards. I have the same experience.

Wouter

Interestingly enough this has very little to do with the absolute length of our hulls.

The main culprit here is the length-to-width ratio !

If the F16's had been only 2 mtr wide (as have the same length to width ratio as the Inter-20's) then the whole situation would have been very different.

The Formula 16's are very wide for their hull length and that allows you to really load up the rig. Getting out on the trapeze loads it up even more. This is all fine for upwind legs where the forward sail drive (30%-40%) is only a fraction of the total sail force (100%). On deep broad reaches with a spi flying the forwardly directed sail drive can easily double.

Now we can just DEMAND to copy the Nacra 20 crews and also want to trapeze downwind or we can do what is best for the F16 platform. When we designed the class rules we recognized the situation for what it was. It was best to increase F16 width to 2.5 mtr and get impressive upwind speed while accepting to come of the wire on challenging downwind legs. Loading up the rig less also loads up the bows less. And at least I expected the deeper courses to compensate for the loss of speed due to less sail drive. In my personal experience this has been the case. I have never felt anything other then competitive with F18's on the downwind legs.

It all comes back to the same rule of thumb I throw about often.

The F16's don't like being loaded up, they prefer to stream.

Open up the rig a little so it breaths freely (get off the wire if that is required) point a little low, pick up speed and then luff as high as you can without losing speed. It has been my experience and that of the befriended Blade owner that this results in the best VMG even when other boats (like the infusion) are pointing slightly higher. It is surprising how similar the F16's are in this respect to landyachts. Speed is everything; as with good boat speed comes good pointing.

I feel Greg Goodall is saying much the same things. He regulary tells interested sailors that :

"It doesn't matter much where you are going as long as you are going there fast"

It was a key point in his trim and tuning address at the 2007 Global Challenge.

And I completely agree with the comments by Matt. Sailing F16's is about control, trim and weight placement. They are sensitive boats and small changes can have large effects. Large gains and loses can be made in these fields.

Good discussion Y'all !

Wouter

Close, but no cigar. Capricorn made in Batam, Indonesia, which is an island across the Straits from Singapore. Easily visible from Singapore though, and easy sail over.

Made by company called XSP which makes all sorts of dinghies from Optis to 470s to 29ers.

Close enough.....?

Personally Mitch - i think the most gain was made hoisting & dropping the kites at the rounding marks.

The vipers were faster off the wind but had to sail higher to achieve the speeds.

Marcus

According to the North American distributor of the Capricorn there is not a new Capricorn on the way. That's not to say a new Cap isn't coming it's just not coming soon.

Well, the north american distributor would be dumb to tell people otherwise: If a new version is coming, there is no reason for people to buy the soon to be obsolete version now... [Note: I don't have any inside information. I'm just saying, it's a sound business practice not to pre-announce new models]

We all know a new rev of a current 'F' boat is always the works, that's how box and F classes work. What I'm trying clarify is the time line. There have been posts that would lead a person to believe that a new Cap is right around the corner, and what the NA distributor is saying that is simply not the case.

Personally I felt she was being straight with me. If you still consider her a liar that's up to you. But, keep in mind you know nothing about this person and you have no information to back up your position.

David, I think your taking offence where none was intended. I can't see Pepin insinuating that the dealer is a liar. He seems to be merely stating what we all know to be a fact of life - that a salesperson is very unlikely to undermine their chance of a sale in the present by telling you that the latest, greatest version of his/her product is just around the corner!!

You're probably right though, I personally don't believe we'll see the next iteration of the Cap just yet.

Well, I remember it took AHPC about 3 years to go from "lets do an F16" to getting the Viper F16 on the water (at the Global Challenge 2007). Despite all the prior knowledge with the Taipan and Caps.

I would expect the new capricorn to be similar in "run-time"

Wouter

I understood what both of you said and of course we all look at sales people with a certain amount of skepticism. And again she didn't say it wasn't coming she just said it wasn't soon. What you and Pepin are saying is that is in fact what she would say knowing full well the new boat is to be splashed soon. If that isn't a lie what is?

Also, I'm not talking in generalities here. We are talking about a person I know and talked to yesterday about this issue. And let's make no mistake about Pepin's reply, it basically said "Ding you're getting played by a dealer". That may in fact be the case and if you guys are right you can beat with the "I told you so stick" but until then you're just speculating and perpetuating an unsubstantiated rumor.

Dude, you're reading too much into it. Calm down. I was just saying that in general you have to take what salesman and saleswoman tells you with a grain of salt. The answer they give you are the one fed to them by the company making the product. And it is in nobody interest to publish roadmaps too far in advance.

If something was going to be available soon, like in the next two months, the sales person would know about it, and would probably actively take pre-orders. More than 4 months away and the factory probably don't tell them anything to preserve the current level of sales. That's basic business sense.

I'm bored. Believe what you want.

Hi all,

at the risk of getting back on thread. I would like to make my last comment on this subject, as I have retired from sailing optimized F16's, you can treat it as the comments of a has been if you like.

The observations of trapping downwind from the OZ Nats are correct. Trapping downwind is what the front 2 up and 1 up boats where doing in 10-16 knots. Because it is faster, no argument The only reason to not do it is if you are not practiced enough at it.

Talking from my experience trapping one up for over 4 years. You actualy sail faster and lower than sitting on the boat . Doubling the advantage, the last Nats the other one ups said they would sit on the boat due to lack of practice, but when they got passed by a guy on trap going lower and faster, they changed their minds pretty quick.