| Rake back the mast ....... a mystery ! #192598 10/04/09 10:05 AM 10/04/09 10:05 AM |
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 31 cooper engineer OP
newbie
|
OP
newbie
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 31 | Please help me ! I have tried in much forum and pages web but are't successful to find a convincing answer to my question: Rake back the mast the mainsail aerodynamically improves the performance? ..... and why ?
Thanks
Last edited by cooper engineer; 10/04/09 10:14 AM.
| | | Re: Rake back the mast ....... a mystery !
[Re: cooper engineer]
#192604 10/04/09 11:56 AM 10/04/09 11:56 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California John Williams
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California | The limit is your ability to get a firm leech on the sail. Block-to-block on the main system with a firm leech is as far as you can go.
John Williams
- The harder you practice, the luckier you get - Gary Player, pro golfer
After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
| | | Re: Rake back the mast ....... a mystery !
[Re: John Williams]
#192606 10/04/09 03:03 PM 10/04/09 03:03 PM | Scarecrow
Unregistered
| Scarecrow
Unregistered | Cooper, mast rake hanges a few things and as a result a full explaination is complicated. But the main reason it helps is to do with lift distribution.
with the mast upright the centre boards are providing most of the hydrodynamic lift that stops your boat going sideways. In order to develop this lift your boat must go sideways a little (leeway) so that the angle of attack of the symetrical foils is sufficient to generate lift. If you rake your mast back then the cntre of effort moves aft so that now the rudders are also being asked to supply lift.
by splitting the load between the boards and rudders you have reduced the amount of lift required from the centre boards and therefor the amount of leeway you'll need to generate said lift. As a result you'll point higher.
As JW says the limit is defined by when you go vlock to block on your main, but before that happens you may find you've developed to much weather helm, making your boat hard to sail.
Last edited by Scarecrow; 10/04/09 03:04 PM.
| | | Re: Rake back the mast ....... a mystery !
[Re: ]
#192607 10/04/09 03:15 PM 10/04/09 03:15 PM |
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 4,451 West coast of Norway Rolf_Nilsen
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451 West coast of Norway |
As JW says the limit is defined by when you go vlock to block on your main, but before that happens you may find you've developed to much weather helm, making your boat hard to sail.
Hard to sail = slower, just to point that out  There are also some zany mathematics on how pressure distribution changes as the leading edge of a foil is raked aft, how it becomes more stall tolerant and loads of other stuff that is relatively "far out". My thumb of rule on mast rake: Rake the mast aft until you can let go of the helm when going upwind in your dominant conditions and with crew/sails trimmed for best VMG. We experimented with rake a lot while sailing the Tornado. For us the class standard ment that the rudder(s) at times was overloaded and lost grip. Then we had to sheet out to regain control. When we corrected this we became faster. We sailed at 200kgs crew weight which was not the norm. Find the setting that suits you and that is your setting | | | Re: Rake back the mast ....... a mystery !
[Re: cooper engineer]
#192608 10/04/09 04:28 PM 10/04/09 04:28 PM |
Joined: May 2006 Posts: 96 Budapest, Hungary, Europe CatSailingHu
journeyman
|
journeyman
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 96 Budapest, Hungary, Europe | Sorry , yes Daggerboards ...TheMightyHobie18 ..... but how mach "little" mast rake ? where is the limit ? My really simple rule (no mathematics.. ) : rake the mast forward! until you can manage the boat in downwind without pichpole or without to much risk at the given conditions (wind and waves). | | | Re: Rake back the mast ....... a mystery !
[Re: Cheshirecatman]
#192622 10/05/09 12:36 AM 10/05/09 12:36 AM |
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 31 cooper engineer OP
newbie
|
OP
newbie
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 31 | Aside from the H16 trim application where you can vary the CLR, a heavily raked mast can help create a rollover vortex to delay separation on the low pressure side.
Cheshirecatman Finally a technical explanation! Can give a detailed explanation of this vortex? | | | Re: Rake back the mast ....... a mystery !
[Re: ]
#192627 10/05/09 06:44 AM 10/05/09 06:44 AM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,203 uk TEAMVMG
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203 uk | Cooper, mast rake hanges a few things and as a result a full explaination is complicated. But the main reason it helps is to do with lift distribution.
with the mast upright the centre boards are providing most of the hydrodynamic lift that stops your boat going sideways. In order to develop this lift your boat must go sideways a little (leeway) so that the angle of attack of the symetrical foils is sufficient to generate lift. If you rake your mast back then the cntre of effort moves aft so that now the rudders are also being asked to supply lift.
by splitting the load between the boards and rudders you have reduced the amount of lift required from the centre boards and therefor the amount of leeway you'll need to generate said lift. As a result you'll point higher.
As JW says the limit is defined by when you go vlock to block on your main, but before that happens you may find you've developed to much weather helm, making your boat hard to sail. That all makes pretty good sense, but would also mean that moving the whole rig backwards would have the same effect. [yes that would mean moving the front beam] there does seem to be some benefit from having the mast angled back from the vertical. Could it be that some lift is generated? A bit like the long spinny pole on a H16 rakes the spinnaker luff and generates lift?
Paul
teamvmg.weebly.com
| | | Re: Rake back the mast ....... a mystery !
[Re: TEAMVMG]
#192679 10/05/09 04:07 PM 10/05/09 04:07 PM | Scarecrow
Unregistered
| Scarecrow
Unregistered | Some light reading on the aerodymanic component of mast rake. Marchaj | | | Re: Rake back the mast ....... a mystery !
[Re: ]
#192684 10/05/09 04:30 PM 10/05/09 04:30 PM | andrewscott
Unregistered
| andrewscott
Unregistered | Available from these sellers. - 1 used from $999.99
$999.99 ???????????? unless the book comes with a new main sail..... WhatTheHECK ???
| | | Re: Rake back the mast ....... a mystery !
[Re: ]
#192694 10/05/09 05:34 PM 10/05/09 05:34 PM |
Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 266 UK Cheshirecatman
enthusiast
|
enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 266 UK | | | | Re: Rake back the mast ....... a mystery !
[Re: ncik]
#192706 10/05/09 08:33 PM 10/05/09 08:33 PM |
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 40 Herbie53
newbie
|
newbie
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 40 | +1 - 2 Day Acat regatta a couple weekends ago, first day I was going upwind as fast or faster than anyone, only to get my clock completely cleaned downwind (3 or 4 boats per leg). Moved the mast forward 1 pin for day two and was able to mostly hold my position downwind (always somewhat of a challenge since I'm 215#) in spite of usually deadly (to me) light air. I think optimum rake is a very situation and boat specific thing... more is not always better. A-class cats with their highly efficient and very vertical masts would disagree with the vortex theory.
Scarecrow's explanation is as technical as needed for improving upwind performance. The trick is finding the right balance for fastest times around the course. Balance of lift to drag as well as upwind and downwind performance. | | | Re: Rake back the mast ....... a mystery !
[Re: cooper engineer]
#192731 10/06/09 08:37 AM 10/06/09 08:37 AM | andrewscott
Unregistered
| andrewscott
Unregistered | ..... as imagined, there isn't a definitive solution. There is no 1 asnwer to a question with so many variables.... Even with all the variables... the great sailors almost always finish in the top spots... so there is non-definitive solution ! | | | Re: Rake back the mast ....... a mystery !
[Re: Will_R]
#192859 10/07/09 10:49 AM 10/07/09 10:49 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | is that like the 'shared lift' concept of the ARC/supercat designer?
so if you moved the boards well forward, and kept the rake more vertical, does sailplan efficiency increase? Kind of like swept wings vs. straight wings in aircraft?
Jay
| | |
|
0 registered members (),
547
guests, and 95
spiders. | Key: Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod | | Forums26 Topics22,406 Posts267,061 Members8,150 | Most Online2,167 Dec 19th, 2022 | | |