| Re: Rake back the mast ....... a mystery !
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#192864 10/07/09 12:22 PM 10/07/09 12:22 PM | andrewscott
Unregistered
| andrewscott
Unregistered | Depends what altitude u sail | | | Re: Rake back the mast ....... a mystery !
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#192867 10/07/09 01:25 PM 10/07/09 01:25 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | is that like the 'shared lift' concept of the ARC/supercat designer?
so if you moved the boards well forward, and kept the rake more vertical, does sailplan efficiency increase? Kind of like swept wings vs. straight wings in aircraft? That's the idea...but the problem then becomes maneuverability.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Rake back the mast ....... a mystery !
[Re: Jake]
#192878 10/07/09 03:36 PM 10/07/09 03:36 PM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL |
That's the idea...but the problem then becomes maneuverability.
which might explain the experiments with gybing daggarboards?
Jay
| | | Re: Rake back the mast ....... a mystery !
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#192880 10/07/09 03:54 PM 10/07/09 03:54 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310 South Carolina |
That's the idea...but the problem then becomes maneuverability.
which might explain the experiments with gybing daggarboards? Nah - different benefit there. The problem with forward mounted daggerboards is that they are so far away from the rudders that they, in effect, make the turning radius of the boat very large...makes it difficult to tack quickly and efficiently. Over the last several years, we've seen (in F18 and A-class) the Daggerboards get located further aft...closer to the rudder. It makes the boat very twitchy but it tacks very quickly. I'm lost on the whole gybing daggerboard thing - I thought they did one thing (point slightly to windward to help the boat climb to weather better) but after looking at the infusion boards, I realized they did the opposite of that...so I don't know what they do...I don't have a boat with them so I haven't been overly concerned about it!
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Rake back the mast ....... a mystery !
[Re: Jake]
#192884 10/07/09 06:18 PM 10/07/09 06:18 PM |
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 951 Brisbane, Queensland, Australi... ncik
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 951 Brisbane, Queensland, Australi... | Nah - different benefit there. The problem with forward mounted daggerboards is that they are so far away from the rudders that they, in effect, make the turning radius of the boat very large...makes it difficult to tack quickly and efficiently.
Sort of...with daggerboards further forward of the rig, the rudder needs to load up more to prevent rounding up, this is weather helm. If you go too far forward it is hard for the boat to bear away from head to wind during a tack because the boat will want to weater-vane around the centreboards (approximately the centre of pressure of hull and appendages). It is also better to think of the centre of pressure of the sails and boards (underwater part of hull and appendages) relative to each other, rather than their position relative to the hull. The centre of pressure is fairly close to the centre of area of the sails and boards. A little bit of weather helm is good for VMG, safety and the general feeling of the boat. some basic explanations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_helmhttp://www.onemetre.net/Design/Balance/Tune.htmhttp://www.sailingusa.info/sailboat_balance.htm | | | Re: Rake back the mast ....... a mystery !
[Re: ncik]
#192891 10/07/09 07:41 PM 10/07/09 07:41 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | Nah - different benefit there. The problem with forward mounted daggerboards is that they are so far away from the rudders that they, in effect, make the turning radius of the boat very large...makes it difficult to tack quickly and efficiently.
Sort of...with daggerboards further forward of the rig, the rudder needs to load up more to prevent rounding up, this is weather helm. If you go too far forward it is hard for the boat to bear away from head to wind during a tack because the boat will want to weater-vane around the centreboards (approximately the centre of pressure of hull and appendages). It is also better to think of the centre of pressure of the sails and boards (underwater part of hull and appendages) relative to each other, rather than their position relative to the hull. The centre of pressure is fairly close to the centre of area of the sails and boards. A little bit of weather helm is good for VMG, safety and the general feeling of the boat. some basic explanations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_helmhttp://www.onemetre.net/Design/Balance/Tune.htmhttp://www.sailingusa.info/sailboat_balance.htm Lee or weather helm has to do with the center of effort of the rudders as they related to their pivot axis. The degree to which the rudder helm is sensitive to various rudder rake positions depends on the center of the lateral resistance and the drive for the sail plan. Your links are mostly related to monohulls and there is a different thing happening there. As their hulls lean, the shape of the hull presented in the water changes dramatically with high angles of heal. The boats tend to lift their sterns and drop the nose (since the bow is slab sided and the back wide and rounded). This changes the presentation of the sails to the wind and it angles the keel downward. They develop severe weather helm with too much lean and tend to lose traction on both the keel and the rudder. Because the angle of most rudders are fixed on monohulls, it's become common practice to think of lee or weather helm as a sole function of the relationship between the center of the sail effort and the lateral resistance center of the boards, keel, or hull. However, this relationship is actually simpler than that. If your rudder is perfectly balanced between it's own center of lateral resistance (or center of lift) with it's center of rotation (pivot axis), there will be no helm whatsoever - it will be completely neutral regardless of the relationship between the sailplan lift and the lateral resistance in the water or any changes you make in that relationship. If the rudder is off-center with it's center of rotation, you will experience helm and depending on which way it is off center, it will be weather or lee helm. That helm loading experienced will be increased or decreased with mast rake or daggerboard position, but it's not the reason you have helm.
Jake Kohl | | |
|
0 registered members (),
211
guests, and 37
spiders. | Key: Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod | | Forums26 Topics22,406 Posts267,061 Members8,150 | Most Online2,167 Dec 19th, 2022 | | |