There was alot of info regarding insurance and liability buried in that thread that I wanted to discuss further. I have been involved in several situations that went various ways. I have seen a consistent resistance from race organizers to hear protests in my area. This leaves it up to the sailors to work out which is fine if they are both honest, quality people. This is not always the case! What can I do if the race committee will not hear my protest, the other skipper says he doesn't have insurance and feels it wasn't completely his fault and offers me nothing. I have had a boat destroyed by a skipper that in the water said he never saw me but in front of the race committee said I turned in his path. I hit a boat starting on port after hailing repeatedly and adjusting course to avoid, he told me that he didn't care I wasn't getting his insurance info. Again no support from race organizers( I did meet Eric and Joleen who tried to help) and my boat damage was repaired on my dime. If insurance is required to race why is it not checked or at least the racers should provide the policy number to the race committee. I am currently in contact with a new sailor in this same situation right now, his boat was damaged, the race organizer didn't want to hear the protest, the other skipper is one of the regulars, the at fault skipper stated he had no insurance and has now faded into the woodwork. I know this is a rant but this is one of the reasons that newbies quit racing or never start all together. If you enter a race without the proper insurance then you are just an butt, and this is happening more than it should and it s being allowed. I have insurance on my boat and additional insurance thru my homeowners, if I wreck your boat it will be taken care of. Whether its really my fault or not! Why do others not take this responsibility seriously?

This is the question. It is also one that will not be solved by insurance. Having insurance will not make anyone more honest and it will not solve any of the issue you bring up in the above post.

Most major races require liability insurance which does not cover collision or damages, that is separate. Even if you have collision, most people will avoid making any claim to keep their rates low, so the unscrupulous will continue to lie and or avoid any responsability. It falls back on the racers to police their attendance to weed out the cheats, but attendance at most events is so low now most do not want to press the issue. Very few cases are so black and white anyway as to be able to black ball someone.

In theory everyone should be responsable for their own actions, but this is not how it works in our society. Manadatory insurance is just a tax to try and make people feel better. Forcing insurance will not make anyone more responsable to their actions and it will not curb poor behavior.

That being said, today not carrying liabilty is just risking bankrupcy with the way the laws work, but that goes for racing a sailboat or just owning property of any type.

Whoa! The P&I (Protection & Indemnity) section of your "marine" insurance covers damage from collision. Usually there is a separate deductible for racing claims. Maybe it is a case of not having the right insurance and why it is so important to go with a US Sailing endorsed or similar underwriter.

Whatever the case, if there is not mutual agreement on fault when paint is traded, you'll most likely have to pay for your boat because the claim would be too small for the the insurance company to start litigation proceedings.

When Gertie ate the butt out of an A Classer a few years ago, my insurance company didn't even flinch, repair estimated, insurance payment sent AND I paid NO Deductable. And And, my rate didn't go up. I've had several claims without my rates going up.

US Sailings insurance is NOT competitive and they don't cover sails the last time I got a quote from them.

Who is your carrier?

State Farm. I pointed out I would be racing and at first they didn't understand that or that I didn't have a motor. Once we got over those hurdles with the help of the underwritters all has been good.

I guess you already understand this one is a can of worms. If I assume the legal situation is the same as in the UK this is my understanding/experience.
Forget the race committee. They may be able to preside over a race/regatta result but even a favourable protest decision carries no weight in a court of law. Also if the insurance certificates are inspected and a competitor allowed to race the race committee/ organising club/authority could be taking on a liability.
Get the competitors information from the race organisers. It is in their interest to not be involved in legal action. If you instruct your insurance to persue the other party they may decide it is not financially in their interest to do so and you will take the hit. Start procedings against the other party. In the UK this needs to be done through a court with admiralty juristiction. If he is insured and doesn't inform the insurance company they will wipe their hands of him and he will personally take any hit.
You will have to put your case to the court. It is little different to putting it to a protest committee but it is not just a breach of racing rules you must prove but his negligence and breach of duty of care (UK-possibly dated).
The whole process is a big PITA. I have been through it after another competitor reneged on his agreement to cover repairs. It cost the other guy three times the repair bill and after the process was told the same guy had hit several other members of his club with the same attitude to his personal responsibility to other competitors. I am sure that some people use this 'you're insured get them to pay attitude' knowing what a pain it is to go through the courts.
I understand that future insurance premiums for the at fault are affected.
The above is a brief account of my own experience. Check to see if the above is applicable in your own area.

I hope this helps give some insight into one possible course of action.

Cheshirecatman

Glad the NASCATs have such a good policy ! Since the F-16s enjoy racing with you guys & gals! I'll ignore that fact that you've had several claims...I think.

No deductible! Wow! So when your crew goes through the main sail (not that it ever happens...) or the rear beam pulls out, is that covered? I'll need to find out with whom you have coverage.

USSAILING Prescription 68 (b):
A protest committee shall find facts and make decisions only in compliance with the rules. No protest committee or US SAILING appeal authority shall adjudicate any claim for damages. Such a claim is subject to the jurisdiction of the courts.

Whether or not a protest is heard can be based on a number of things, including procedures for notification, etc. This should never be confused with actual liability.

I'm not a lawyer, so I'm going to stop there. I would say take the guy to small claims court.

I agree, if the attitude is pervasive, it definitely isn't good for the sport. But, there is only so much you can put on the RC (even if "proof" is provided, who's to say it wasn't cancelled, etc.).

Mike

no deductable for liability claim, comprehesive claim deductable applies. When you break someone else stuff no $$$, when you break your own then $$$.

Liability varies from country to country. RRS 68 states:

This is one area of the rules that is different in the US than the UK. US Sailing prescription 68(c) states (in part):

Therefore, it is vitally important that a protest hearing determine the facts and interpret the rules in incidents involving damage. Otherwise, you are depending on the insurance carrier and/or court to understand the racing rules (which is not a good bet). Dick Rose recently began a series of articles in Sailing World magazine on the subject of damage. I expect to see some good advice on what to do when hit.

If a race committee or organizing authority won't hold a protest hearing, refer them to RRS 63.1, which says (in part):

The protest MUST be heard. It is not optional. If the OA refuses to follow the rules, request (in writing) a copy (again, in writing) of the facts and conclusions (or of their refusal to hear the protest). Submit an appeal under RRS 70.1 (failure to hold a hearing is an appealable procedural error). US Sailing can direct an OA to hold a hearing. If they still fail to do so, US Sailing may impose sanctions on them.

That may sound harsh, but hearing protests is a mandatory part of the sport. If a club can't do that, then it shouldn't be running races.

I hope that helps,
Eric
US Sailing Certified Judge,
member Area D Appeals Committee

In my last post I wrote:

"Whether or not a protest is heard can be based on a number of things, including procedures for notification, etc."

After reading Eric's post, what I meant to say is:

"Whether or not a protest is determined to be valid can be based on a number of things, including procedures for notification, etc."

Eric is right, if you file you must be given a hearing.

Mike

If you are still denied a hearing, what then?

fugly... See Eric's comments...

Protest validity requirements are relaxed for incidents involving serious damage. RRS 61.1(a)(3) states:

If she cannot reasonably protest within the time limit, RRS 61.3 states (in part):

Furthermore, protest committee themselves can step in. RRS 60.3(a)(1) states:

The purpose of these rules is to make sure damaged boats or injured crew get every chance possible for a protest hearing. It's much, much better for a PC on site to determine the facts (and apply the rules) when everybody is present and the incident is fresh in people's minds, than for a court of law to try later.

Regards,
Eric

Similar to what Cheshirecatman said in the UK... US insurance companies are not interested in what the RRS or protest committees say. They are only concerned in the legal authority for boating laws in the body of water where the accident occurred. In Ohio for example, the Ohio Revised Code governs all bodies of water except the great lakes and Ohio river which are governed by Federal laws and Coast Guard requirements. The RRS/protest committee can DSQ the sailor, and potentially prevent them from future racing, but they cannot do anything about your claims.

If there is significant damage, you should immediately contact your governing body... DNR, sheriff, police, etc. just as you would an automotive incident. Do so before witnesses leave the scene and definitely before the offending party leaves the scene.

It makes no sense for one set of rules (the Racing Rules of Sailing) to govern the racing, and another set (COLREGS, IRPCS, or state law) to govern liability for a collision. There would be irreconcilable conflicts of right-of-way. That's why US Sailing prescribes:

Now, I don't claim that insurance companies behave rationally, but since you agree that the rules determine liability, they should honor that. If they refuse, I'd recommend finding a different carrier. There are insurance companies that understand maritime law and the implications of racing.

A US insurance claims adjuster should give weight to the report of a protest committee, just as they would to a police report of an auto accident.

Sincerely,
Eric

Eric

I don't believe that there is any way you can force a sailor to appear at a protest hearing and present a case.

...even in the case of major damage.

Mark, I am not kidding if there is significant damage and the offending party is not immediately taking responsibility for their actions. The point I am making is that protest results has nothing to do with payment for damages in the eyes of the insurance industry. update in later post... US courts have upheld RRS trump COLREGS Your insurance company may even require a police report before paying regardless of who is at fault and/or your state and local laws may require filing a report if the damages exceed a certain dollar amount.

I am not talking about trading gelcoat at the start line... talking about something like a destroyed hull, mast or something that may cost thousands to repair or replace.

I have seen it multiple times in 30 years of racing that the damaged boat owner thinks that the protest committee is the recourse in resolving payment of damages. They leave the scene thinking that it will be resolved in a club protest room. Only later do they find the at-fault party had no intention of paying or exchanging insurance information.