Tim, Ask the top 3 boats at the GC and I think you will be suprised at their answer...

You need more than 3 votres to change the class rules.

As Rolf states above; we have a clearly defined route to changing the class rules.

Rolf, I don't know who HJS is and have had no contct with them.

However: if you read the first post in this thread, you will see that HJS started by promotng the class, and now you return the favor by attacking their credibility! Nice way to encorage participation!!

just because people dont agree with the out of whack rules the class has does't mean they are trying to destroy the class!

And by the way, "Sue" is now the proud owner of a Viper...

Simon,

Tim was making an assumption about the top 3 teams opinion on the issue of class min weight, I was simply requsting that he actually ask hem for their thoughts and post the answers on here.

Whist we wait for those answers, maybe you could confirm what your carbon F16 weighs?

Hi Wouter,

I really don't want to have a polemic discussion, or a comparaison of this one is better, this one is heavyer ...there's no interest for that.
Like i'm professional, after I take volontary exemple on AHPC boats i sell, for nobody outside could be feel ofensed.


there's some facts :

A Taipan haven't be devellop for Spi.
Add a spi and few years of experiences on cat design : the shape, volume and stifness of hulls and platform need to be increase.
Viper was developed on these bases.
Like they haven't the same specifications at the begining, a Taipan and a Viper couldn't made the same weight with similar build, at the end it's evident.
So for made a Viper at the weight of Taipan, Viper should be really more expensive than Taipan with an more high tech build.
That's all, there's no polemic around that.

The 2 boats are agree with F16 rules, and sail together in F16

The 2 boats like "production boat" haven't the same rating because their data are differents.
A rating is calculate only on data, there's no adjustement if it's an old or new design, a bad or a very good design ...
so calculator said Viper is slower than Taipan.

All that for me is correct, and need no change.


In A class, build a 75 kg boat with glass hull is possible, no problem, i had an AJ under 75 kg.
Why racer buy all carbon hulls ?

In F18 180 kg is a confortable weight.
It was easy in the past to have boat at 180 kg or a little under.
with new design ...some of them have difficulties for stay at 180 kg, at world boat with weight corrector isn't a lot.
Why ?


After for give some numbers ...

(sorry if power ratio isn't the good term in English but i think you'll understand)

power ratio of an
A class is 340 kg/m
F16 1-up (103 kg) 395 kg/m
Viper 1-up 415 kg/m
F16 2-up (107 kg) 630 kg/m
Viper 2-up (130 kg) 650 kg/m
F18 750 kg/m
Tornado 800 kg/m

Take an A class like references

for made an F16-1 up
power ration increase of 16 % and weight of 37% for a 103 kg boat.

for made an F16 - 2up
you increase power ratio of more of 80 %
but you increase weight of only 43 % for a 107 kg boat. (73% for a 130 kg boat).


Now take an F18 like references

for made an F16 - 2up
you decrease power ratio of only 16 %
but you decrease weight of 41 % for a 107 kg boat, (28 % for a 130 kg boat).

for made an F16-1 up
power ration decrease of 45 % and weight of 43% for a 103 kg boat.


volontary i don't want give my conclusion about ..



My view is only a 25 or 30 K€ boat full carbon, and full victory should accept with smile by the class ?

In my experience a fully carbon hull over a fully glass hull is less than 20% in material costs.. This is with the equivalent layup..

I haven't the same price base, but it's not a problem.
speak only of hulls is like look by keyhole.
generaly on a cat, hulls are only 40 ~ 50 % of global weight.

The Tiapan was originally designed for a kite..
Should be in the Tiapan's history if you care to check up.. But was dropped early in the development.. Being that as it is..

I also do not believe the Viper has any greater build technology in the build than a 80s built skiff.. I also disagree with thinking that a ply hull is any less of a hull than a composite. Apart from the easy of complex curves than be ply hull can be exceptional.

So AHPC wants a bigger and heavier hull *shrugs* so? My only comment is its but its not a class killer.

In my opinion the F18 is way way overweight.. *shrugs* But that is the classes choice.. The only reference one should make to them in reference to the F16 is their rating.

Please remember the weights were calculated to keep the F16 solo and F16 cat on the same benchmark.. Nothing needs changing imho.

Still not sure why one needs to spend that much to make a fully carbon F16..

now I just need time and less traveling so I can get back on the water...

Macca,

stop making yourself look like a clown. Returning to this Don Quixote quest with the min weight and trying to be smart playing word games. It is not going to happen. If you want to try raising min weight, here is the info you need:

Become a member here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/60/63/lang,en/

You find the class rules here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/19/34/lang,en/

Until you do it the proper way, leave the subject alone or get out of here.

Rolf,

I am a paid member of the F16 class.

I have 2 Questions:-

1. What do the top 3 teams at the GC think about the min weight issue?

2. What does Simon's all carbon, super cheap F16 weigh?

No word games, just simple questions that can be answered quite easily.

According to the class records, you are not a paid up class member (and I just checked).
You are not an F16 owner either as far as I know. You have no stakes in the class, so:


Stop making yourself look like a clown. Returning to this Don Quixote quest with the min weight and trying to be smart playing word games. It is not going to happen. If you want to try raising min weight, here is the info you need:

Become a member here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/60/63/lang,en/

You find the class rules here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/19/34/lang,en/

Until you do it the proper way, leave the subject alone or get out of here.

Macca,
I have been keeping the books for the past 2 years and you
ARE NOT a paid up member of the class.

Maybe the class finances are slow too....

Here is the Paypal Unique Transaction ID: #7MR30369MP184463M

Oh, and I still own a Maricat 4.3, which I believe is F16 compliant....

HJS, her name is Helen. Only guessing, but she is "Helen Goodall". I am sure she can confirm if she is that Helen or another Helen.

Dude!! check the Avatar!! HJS is a 2 year old child

Hey, was only guessing. Well kids these days certainly grow up fast if already on the net and discussing F16 issues.

Very grown up issues too!

I built the software behind the members entry form so I know you had not applied and where not a paid up member when you said so. Phill would know about your application and payment before you could press "Submit" on your post here.
The Maricat fails to qualify as an F16. Dont play childrens games with adults and more word games.

If you eventually become a member, go to the members forum on: http://www.formula16.net/forum/ and present your arguments there. To get a vote on the changes you want you also have to submit a proposal to the GC. You dont stand a chance to get the change through tough. Read up on the class rules and the constitution before you waste more of your time on this quixotic foolery.

Until then:

Stop making yourself look like a clown. Returning to this Don Quixote quest with the min weight and trying to be smart playing word games. It is not going to happen. If you want to try raising min weight, here is the info you need:

Become a member here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/60/63/lang,en/

You find the class rules here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/19/34/lang,en/

Until you do it the proper way, leave the subject alone or get out of here.

Rolf,

I filled in the form and paid well before I posted that I was a member. So I think you will find there is an error on the back end...

If you like, I can email the screen shot directly to your email (gmail) address that is given as the paypal account contact?

This is a very sad thread and so uselessbut maybe the following can be a solution.
Why not go to the F18 forum and start a weight thread overthere why they have a minimum weight rule in there class rules or maybe on the main forum start a weight thread on the minimum weight rule in A-class and start talking why not raise the weight in these classes.

But all fool things in a row , minimum weight is a rule in the class rules and so be it and i do not see any reason to come back on it over and over again.