Based on where we're at with the age of the N20 sail plan:

1) Sail design improvement over what we have for a 2 to 5% (heck, maybe even 7% in some conditions) gain may well be a simple push-button science for sailmakers with the right equipment and experience.

2) Sail design for the last 1 to 2% of the speed potential is an art form and requires an influx of resources on an ever increasing exponential curve.

3) I have this sneaky suspicion that deep down you guys are eaten up with this "must beat the F18" mantra. I believe that there are some incorrect conclusions that are feeding this emotion and I think it's a bit of a short sited view. First; the one time the F18 has shown a strong advantage is last year's Tybee 500 on the several days of tight spinnaker reaching. There's no doubt that the N20 has an achilles heal here with the very full kite and main and the gobs of sail area. However, around the cans, the F18 (the boat) is still not beating the N20 (the boat) in most conditions. Granted, it's been about 1.5 years since I dialed up on a start line against one, but it wasn't that long ago that Nigel on his F18 was following me and my rookie crew around the race course for too many laps on more than one occasion and one event (I used to stink at getting the course number...now I can't count laps damnit).

Let's make sure we all have the right reasons in mind here for this sail change. If you want to do it to beat the F18, you guys can have all of that on your own. Just open up the sail plans and be done with it - it's an exercise that will serve to fracture a class that has survived to this point based on a very different philosophy. If you want the sail change to increase the class's marketability with an outward appearnce of a gently and thoughtfully "refreshed" sail plan that makes the boat a little more manageable on the race course then I'm all with you. Keep in mind that if you make some huge leap, you're obsoleting all legacy boats and sailors who don't have the jack for $3200 worth of new sails. You know that phrase they use in Texas about that famous fort that fell during the Texas Revolution? Well... "Remember the 6.0".

Let's not make this so complicated that we can't figure out which end of the gun the bullet comes out of.

Based on where we're at with the age of the N20 sail plan:

1) Sail design improvement over what we have for a 2 to 5% (heck, maybe even 7% in some conditions) gain may well be a simple push-button science for sailmakers with the right equipment and experience.

2) Sail design for the last 1 to 2% of the speed potential is an art form and requires an influx of resources on an ever increasing exponential curve.

3) I have this sneaky suspicion that deep down you guys are eaten up with this "must beat the F18" mantra. I believe that there are some incorrect conclusions that are feeding this emotion and I think it's a bit of a short sited view. First; the one time the F18 has shown a strong advantage is last year's Tybee 500 on the several days of tight spinnaker reaching. There's no doubt that the N20 has an achilles heal here with the very full kite and main and the gobs of sail area. However, around the cans, the F18 (the boat) is still not beating the N20 (the boat) in most conditions. Granted, it's been about 1.5 years since I dialed up on a start line against one, but it wasn't that long ago that Nigel on his F18 was following me and my rookie crew around the race course for too many laps on more than one occasion and one event (I used to stink at getting the course number...now I can't count laps damnit).

Let's make sure we all have the right reasons in mind here for this sail change. If you want to do it to beat the F18, you guys can have all of that on your own. Just open up the sail plans and be done with it - it's an exercise that will serve to fracture a class that has survived to this point based on a very different philosophy. If you want the sail change to increase the class's marketability with an outward appearnce of a gently and thoughtfully "refreshed" sail plan that makes the boat a little more manageable on the race course then I'm all with you. Keep in mind that if you make some huge leap, you're obsoleting all legacy boats and sailors who don't have the jack for $3200 worth of new sails. You know that phrase they use in Texas about that famous fort that fell during the Texas Revolution? Well... "Remember the 6.0".

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Jake, I agree 100% with you here. This is a one-design class, why are we setting the F-18 as the benchmark?

Let's look at costs:

Of all the top F-18 sailors in the world, which lofts do most get their sails from? Are they the small, local, lofts? Or are they big, well-known (nationally and internationally) lofts with loads of experience and followers? (Think Ullman-Zuccoli, Performance Sails, even E/P)...
Do you think those lofts sell sails at a big discount? Absolutely not! Their sails come at a premium....

Let's look at R&D:

Nacra has agreed to let us update the sails over a rollout period. Why are we trying to reinvent the wheel overnight? E/P, just as well as any other loft, knows that needs to be done to update the sail plan-they just need permission from Nacra to do that. We are in the process of getting that 'formal' permission. It has to be a stepped plan though, not an all-at-once kind of event.

Sail design is not what is holding most of us back.

I don't want to see the sails opened up for many reasons.
1. The factory won't support it so we now are responsible to hold our own Nationals separate from the factory. This would not work with too few boats. We have to be included with the other boats to make the numbers work for a Nationals.

2. We bring in the fact that money can buy wins with newly designed sails that are faster.

3. We drive the weekend sailors out of the class because it's too expensive to compete on a level playing field.

4. We don't have anybody with the time or ability to measure all of these sails. It took the F18 years to get measurement in place and it's still hard to pull off.

We have to be careful. I do think that moving to the new sail plan could be a class killer. There are very few of us that campaign our boats actively. There are a lot more people that sail in 2-3 local regattas a year. They might have a 3 year old main but as little as they sail it's still just fine.

These are the people that we could drive out of the class. They aren't willing to spend $1850 on a new main or 3500 on a new set of sails for 2-3 regattas. They also are not willing to go to a regatta and be uncompetitive. So we basically run the risk of losing these people. These folks won't be competitive in a year anyway.

It's very easy to piss people off. Those people will move classes if they feel like they are outgunned or out spent by other teams. What class are they going to spend less in that's a viable class?

I'm in the middle. I think a nice staged and announced course of action would be good. We have to have a proposal and a vote. This would ensure that we all are heard. Also we don't want a vote with 4 options. Only 2 options at a time so we don't have split vote issues.

I don't want to see the sails opened up for many reasons.
1. The factory won't support it so we now are responsible to hold our own Nationals separate from the factory. This would not work with too few boats. We have to be included with the other boats to make the numbers work for a Nationals.What does the factory do now, besides give a little cash to the host club?
2. We bring in the fact that money can buy wins with newly designed sails that are faster.I want to be faster, don't you?
3. We drive the weekend sailors out of the class because it's too expensive to compete on a level playing field. I reiterate they probably weren't competitive to begin with.
4. We don't have anybody with the time or ability to measure all of these sails. It took the F18 years to get measurement in place and it's still hard to pull off. We do and we can, it's a matter of whether the class as a whole is too lazy to do anything about it.

I think we need to have a small group of three people (bouy, distance, Weekend) to hash out a plan talking among themselves then have someone talk to the factory and
Skip to come up with a plan. After coming up with an exact plan they should put it to a vote for the boat owners. This has already happened with ONE person,Trey, (I applaud his effort) and he has a plan. I think all owners should be involved ,hence the google group to try and keep everyone in the loop.

But you still run the risk of splintering the class.

And speaking of being abandoned the NACRA 20 is not on the pricelist as a current class boat. That's how it died for the P19, Nacra 5.8 and Nacra 6.0. So think about that when your blindly putting your trust in the factory for sail innovation.Seems to me with the success of the Infusion,the introduction of the new F20,and the fact that PC is now European owned, where there is no Nacra20 class to speak of, that their incentive to help us is pretty small, even when it comes to the sale of new sails.

The class is dieing,that's obvious.

The way the class rules are set now. You don't get a vote until there are more than 50 boat owners registered and paid in the class association.
By your logic you want to inhibit the class to the lowest common denminator, I have no interest in that. I think the fault in that logic lies in that the people can't or won't spend the money will go to another class. The other classes they will go to are more expensive, unless you want the N20 to become like a Hobie 18( nothing wrong with that just not fast and current ). It has been a cutting edge fast boat , and it would be a shame to let that go for the unmotivated sector in the class.

The F20 isn't on the U.S price list either. Does this mean the F20 is a dieing class as well?

In all fairness, Todd is right that there haven't been many purchases of new N20's in the U.S in recent memory and this is a sign that they aren't going to be commonly available NEW in the near future. No new boat sails means no fleet growth. While the 20's have a decent showing at select regattas, the numbers simply don't compare with the 18's which are growing at a very fast pace across the country and North America; I doubt the 20 will ever catch up to this. We as a class need to actively recruit guys that are on the heavy side for an 18; in order to do that we need to make a strong fleet showing at as many regattas (not pure distance race events) as possible.

I don't understand WHY you keep bringing up this pricelist issue Todd.

Does it indicate that the factory has decided to let the class die and that they wont be marketing the boat anymore?

Anymore smartass deductions?