Have been looking at the F20 group and reading a lot of the post. My good friend and I have been considering moving to a 20 foot cat. Currently we are sailing hobie 16s single handed most of the time since can never find crew that is light enough to go out with us. So we are looking at teaming up, but with a combined weight of 370 we are to heavy for the 16s, even with the square top mylar i have added to mine. So wondering what is the status of the F20 group in the US? Are people getting into it, or is the F18 the new area. Would like a 20 footer since could handle our weight better.
Also what is this i hear about some problem with the I20 and making it formula legal? Or am i misunderstanding it.
Also we do a lot of lake sailing so would have to do well in light air which i understand it does.

Appreciate any comments you all have.
Thanks

Jody Abrams

quote]So wondering what is the status of the F20 group in the US? Are people getting into it, or is the F18 the new area [/quote]

The F18 formula rule is tried and true in the EU and catching on in the US for teams that don't want all of the horsepower of a 20 foot boat. Michigan, Syracuse California and perhaps the South East have several boats racing. Slight modifications to the EU F18 rule operate in the US to avoid measurement issues. Three builders supply boats for this class in the US. The class members would love to change your mind about racing an 18 footer even at 370 lbs.

We also have a F18HT formula rule which is also growing in popularity mostly on the east coast. This formula creates a faster lighter 18footer and one builder supplies boats for this class right now. This design was chosen for the Little America’s cup match racing revival. These class members would also like you to consider a lighter 18foot design even at your team weight of 370.

The equivalent F20 euro rule does not operate in the US. Nor for that matter do we have a generally accepted NA F20 rule by either builders or by sailors. Since much of the racing is regional anyway... fleets have developed in specific areas for three popular 20 footers.

The US I20 is not Euro F20 legal because it uses a larger mainsail then allowed by the EU F20 rule. The US sailors are not interested in a smaller mainsail and see no advantage to conforming to the EU formula rule because we really don't have another popular 20 foot class that would measure into the EU rule and show up on the race course to compete against with their I20's.

So the bottom line is. The Nacra I20 is the most popular 20 foot spin design in the US market and is widely sailed in distance and buoys races around the country. The Nacra 6.0 has some regions like New England where its the boat of choice and the sailors have agreed on a formula chute. However, nationally the class could not reach a consensus about racing as a spin class at nationals and remains a sloop class at the national level.

The 20 foot spin boats that are raced in the US include the I20 and the Nacra 6.0 with the NE class spinaker and the Tornado. These boats are essentially level rated around the buoys but do not conform to a formula rule. Portsmouth ratings are used to handle the performance differences due to wind speed. The Tybee 500 raced three designs as level rated, :I20, N6.0 and F18HT: Small differences in performance are magnified after 12 hours on the water and opinions vary as to which design is faster for a Tybee 500 or any distance race.

I have read rumors that the EU F20 sailors are considering a move to a larger mainsail in order to match the Tornado on the water but haven't followed up on this development.

A new design is on the drawing board for a 20 footer which would be significantly lighter then the existing F20 rule or the US versions of 20 footers. This design does not intend to match any formula rule at all. Their goal is an optimized distance racing machine that is 8.5 feet x 20 feet.

Carl Roberts has campaigned for a North American Formula 20 rule that he has developed and I will leave it up to Carl to fill you in on his progress with gaining acceptance of this formula. He has written extensively on his program.

I sail a Tornado and believe that the future of the 20 foot racing scene will stay as level portsmouth racing with one design fleets scored out. Many others vigorously disagree.

My advice would be to determine which of the 20 footers are actively raced in your area and consider this boat first. Secondly, consider how much traveling are you willing to do to go racing and what fleets are active in this region and what mix of buoys and distance races are you looking for. Finally, I would reconcile myself to the fact that quite of bit of the racing scene will be portsmouth or handicap racing against similar but not identical 20 footers because we simply don't have the density of sailors that the EU does and we all like slightly different boats. For example, The C100 had spin fleets of 3 Tornado's, 3 F18HT's and 11 I20's and 1 Supercat 20 1P19MX. This turnout looks quite small compared to 63 Tornado's racing in Sardinia Italy for the EU championships.

Good luck and where do you plan to sail?
Mark

Hi Jody

With total crew weight of 370 plus gear etc the 20 ft cat is ideal ,--Inter 20 is currently most poular.

There is a good discussion on when we will see a Supercat Formula 18 and Formula 20 on the open section .
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...d&sb=5&o=&fpart=12#Post21186
The designer responded stating S C would build a 8.5 beam 20 based on the Arc 21 design ,--An excellent Formula 20 boat .

This is the concept of Formula ,--to allow numerous builders to build boats for us to race that match a set of general specifications ,--the basics being length -weight -beam and sail area .
Many catsailors have rsponded positively to it ,-and as 18s get rolling numerous 20 sailors will finaly slap their forheads and say why don;t we do this in the 20s also ..

Think its a matter of time and getting some builder -dealer interest and support here in the U S to get it going .

Mark commented also but has a self proclaimed mission statement of promoting handicap racing ,-still others like their small one design group ,--All types of sailing are great ,-we need them all .

It really gets down to how best to classify groups of boats to race against one another . Numerous problems emerge in H C racing ,-they need to be broken down into high med,and low P number classes ,-then spin and non spin ,-so its really a matter of degree of classification .
Then the inequities still exist as applied to distance racing to a point where some types are excluded AS WE SEE IN RACES LIKE THE tYBEE AND TEXAS RACES .

One design--one brand type only is very limiting but fair racing that most catsailors prefer whenever available .

Formula 20 along with other length classes provides the best longterm solution OF PROVIDING EQUAL FAIR SAILING with multiple builders and types of cat design .

The U S version Inter 20 has 15 more sq ft in a larger sq top mainsail and weighs 390 lb ---as opposed to the 418 Euro version with smaller main .-
We have outlined general specs for the U S based on the I-20 version that is popular here and hope others will join in by producing similar 20s within specification outlined .

Any can take a 20 and build or modify an existing 20 into a Formula 20 .
I,m not a boat dealer ,-importer or boat builder so have no ecomonic interests in it ,-but would really enjoy ,-as many others would the great racing it would encourage .

SEEKING N A Formula 20 ORGANIZATIONAL HELP
OR HAPPY TO WORK WITH ANY INTERESTED GROUP .

Hopefully that is the ideal and goal -as the F 18s AND 16S GET ROLLING HERE IN THE u s ,--THE 20S CAN,T BE FAR BEHIND .

Really like the idea of formula type racing. Portsmouth is fun and i do a lot of it agains monoslugs, but nice to go out and race where water finish is the final result, not a computer thing. Have been looking at the formula 18/16s for a while but realy the 2 of us are still to big for them. A 20 sounds to fit just right. What can we do to help build up the organization, other than get a boat (working on that currently,do some moonlighting to get the boat). But would not mind helping any other way i can.

Thanks for the great info.

Jody Abrams

jabram,

If you are at 370 lbs and sail predominately in the lighter airs than a 20 footer is definately your boat.

You could probably get away with a F18 but you'll be at the high end of the crewweights. The 16's won't take you; these quit being competitive at 340 lbs.

But the reason I'm making this post is because of the rumour that the iF20 class is looking to upgrade their mainsail size to the US size. I can assure you that the iF20 organisation is NOT doing that right now. I think maybe the named person of Peter Vink may be interested in this but he is only a private person in this matter and I doubt he will get enough support to be succesful at getting the rules adjusted. Apart from the US no sailor is really interested in even more sailarea in this class. It is already quite powerful in all but the lighter conditions.

I would disregard this rumour in your decision making. On the other hand, what is 1,4 sq. mtr. ? It is nice if you're in a lighter weather area and if the iF20 goes global just like the F18 it will always be easy enough to a iF20 class legal sail if you really want to compete in international competitions. This is not really a biggy.

I see that alot of I-20's are for sale second hand so that should be of interest too.

There are also quite a few F18HT's for sale now. I counter something like 8 on the catsailors classifieds.

I think you options are pretty well cut.

F18's if you're really interested in international raceing (probably not); F18 will establish herself in the US that much is clear.

Inter-20 (sort of F20) if your mostly sailing recreational with the occasional big regatta in the US where often their is a sizeable I-20 presence.

Wouter

Thanks for the info.
Can the I20 make the change to the smaller sail without any mods? Seems like it is just aa big square top that addes the extra sail.
I would need the big sail as we often sail in wind of around 5 knots.
Thanks for the info.

Jody Abrams

Hi Jody

One thing advocated in the N A F-20 rules outline was mainsail reef systems -
We saw good ones this year on the Javs racing in the Tybee 500 ,--reefable mainsails and sails by Smyth sail loft .

The 15 sq ft of sail area becomes less an issue with reef systems and roller furlers and jib size variables allowed under the rules .

The ability to modify boats to make them safer -faster ,---
many catsailors understand the need for this type of class in N A And would like to partisipate in it and help build it ,-- .


Basic rules are outlined here on the F-20 forum ,-
They can be expanded on and modified also .
A professional looking N A F-20 website is needed this year ,--a volunteer for that would be welcome and central communication point for others wishing to help organize .
Then its a matter of electing class officers -titles and contacting race organizers for F-20 events and major distance races .
Someone with better organizational -people skills should head it up and make it work .
Builder dealer and sailmaker involvement and support is really needed also .-
There are numerous existing builders of 20s ,--and more potential ones in N A ,-2 NEW ONES OUT THIS YEAR REPORTEDLY --

Here is the U K Formula web site -
http://www.catamaran.co.uk/IF20/IF20.htm

No reason why we can,t get one going here in North America.
here also is a link to the current NA F-20 rules outline

http://www.lakelaniersailing.com/f20class/

Plan to keep the effort going to promote interest in it until it takes off with numerous interested people to run it ,--as long as it takes .
Hopefully this season

Everything about the I-20 is identical and you can fit an iF20 sail to a US I-20 just as you would with a EU I-20. For example the EU I-20 mast are importanted from the USA.

They have only increased the squaretop and the roach a little; no major modififucations.

If you are sailing in those conditions that yes a big main will be very nice.

Wouter

hI mARK

Your sounding alot like Badhdad Bob !!
"I tripleguarentee you there are no Formula Classes in N A"
-We.ll just call ya PoRthmouthDAD MArk from now on .

The N A F-20 CLASS will be a great compliment to the N A 16 18 classes -It may take a little longer due to variations by builders here ,but certainly Formula racing is gaining wide acceptance in all length categories and is just an inevitable continuance of Formula into the 20 s .

The popular Inter 20 N A version has 15 more sq ft of sail area and is 28 LBs lighter ,--N A rules outline address this ,-otherwise are basically the same as F-20 .

There is a growing positive responce to Formula ,-the tide is turning . Formula 20 for N A are just as inevitable .

Links to i-F-20 INFO and N A OPEN f-20 IN POST ABOVE .

We raced Formula in our first race of the year. We had 5 N20s and one 6.0NE. The racing was close and the 6.0 took second overall. They even won one race. I am not sure if any 6.0s will be racing formula this weekend.Hopefully more will race as we need more data. It seems the 6.0 crews need to be more skilled to keep on pace with the N20s.Time will tell.

Hi Barry

What formula are you using?

Setting a spin size for the N6.0 so that it is level in performance to the I20 is an excellent work-around but I am not sure how it equates to a formula that new designs would be optimized for.

I also wonder how a 6.0 with the large jib could ever be made to handle as well as an I 20 or Tornado with a self tacking jib. With equivalent teams on the boats, the 6.0 must be at a disadvantage going around a small WL course. My Tornado without the self tacking jib was a nightmare!

On the other hand, strait line speed could well be equivalent in most conditions between the two boats.
What basis do you decide to declare the two boats equal in performance, strait line speed or speed around the course?

Take Care
Mark

Mark
Technically we aren't using any Formula but a platform around the I20.
The problem the F20 class faces is that there is only two boats that (or can easily) fit the current rule. We need to start some where. The I20 and 6.0NE are so close why not race them together. The speed on the course as been similar and changes with conditions. I think the boats will get closer as time goes. All of the I20 sailors around here have years of experience and most of the 6.0 sailors have a little or no experience. The 6.0 requires a higher skilled crew to do what a less skilled crew can do on the I20.
The I20 group here has decided to allow the 6.0NE to race us heads up The 6.0 class was pushing the NE spinnaker saying that it would be faster than the I20 around the buoys. Well we politely asked them to back it up. Allot of the guys are interested in buying racing with spinnakers and can afford a more expensive boat like the I20 or T.
We have decided the boats are equal in straight line speed and close round the buoys. We have raced three regatta with 6.0s. I think the boats are close but it was the crew that had the most spinnaker experience the prevailed. The tornado is close to the I20 most conditions as well. It doesn't technically meet the rule but why not race them together? Over time we can all meet at a common rule that is accepted by the sailors. It may come down to the T and I20 having to add weight or something like that.
The F20 class as been dicused for 6 years or so but we are sailing to rule that remains to be defined. We are all fine with that. I think the positive think is that we are doing it and not crying over the rules. Time will tell.
It may not work but we have a ton of 6.0s here but the class can't last for ever because the boats are not being made anymore. It give them a low cost F20 option. Come on up to Roton Point in the Fall and we can add the T to the list of F20 class boats.

HI Barry

Outstanding solution. Sounds like you have the potential to grow a pretty active 20 foot spin "f20" division in New England.

I would love to go to the Wroten Point regatta unfortunately it conflicts with first beach cat class race with 150 + monohulls to Oxford and back. I am organzing our participation and can't really miss the event or party.

Perhaps you will make it to Michigan for the catfight ... pretty much the same format as you guys are using.

Take Care
Mark

Way to go Barry ,-
check the CRAM f-18s growing popularity ,-the F-18 hts in VA and other areas ,-It is the best way to grow active racing fleets .
We will see many more similar Formula fleets of all length categories ,-just as you have done its a matter of starting it up at your local club and also encourage it for distance racing events .

Jody,

If you are serios about a new 20 boat and can wait till this fall, you should consider looking at the one Vectorworks Marine is building.

As there is no consensus on a formula for the NA20 the Smyth team was tasked to design the optimum rig configuration for a 20 foot cat with a 8.5 beam. While in light air a 1000 sf of sail area will beat 200 They will inversely be destroyed when the wind blows 20. The challenge is to design a complete system that provides the ability to be tuned to run well over a wide range of wind and crew conditions. The I20 and HT18 did not exist a few years ago, but now are creating their own classes and in the case of the HT18 formulas. A base line has to set somewhere and grown from there. The goal of the V20 was to build a platform that optimized what could be achieved given the limitations of the platform size without spending 35K (See Marstroms M20)

Initials specs

20ft long
8.5 wide
300 lb all up
Main 200 sf
Jib 72 sf
Spin 350 sf

Some of the keys to the design revolve around simplicity and ease of handling the systems for tunability to handle many conditions easily. The Jib is an overlapping full roach, self tacking, and fully battened. The self tacking simplifies the crew work, while the improvements in performance come from the overlap and ability to depower without luffing as in the systems currently found in the 20 footers. The main is Smyths square top on an carbon stick that can be easily tuned for power. Ther main will also have reefing capability designed similar to what he used for the HT class. The spin snuffer is also rigged so that no pole bags and toilet seats ride out front, but can be still easily handled for those short bouy courses.

Look out for some more formal press releases coming soon.

The first platform is due to be on the water testing in Sept, and will be racing the FL circuit this winter. If the platform can be sufficiently tested and there is interest, the factory has agreed to produce boats for charter in selected races such as the Tybee etc.

Take care

Matt

20ft long
8.5 wide
300 lb all up
Main 200 sf
Jib 72 sf
Spin 350 sf

Hi Matt

What optimum crew weight was used to design this boat?

What kind of weight ranges do you expect to race the boat?

What consideration was taken into account for the hull/rig design to optimize team weight ranges.

Thanks
Mark

Hi - My friend and I switched to an I20 3 years ago after sailing the P19. There was no way we could compete downwind with the lighter crews (295 lbs) when we were nearly 400 lbs. The larger main and spinnaker on the I20 make us competive, even in the lighter 8 knot winds we often have here in San Diego. I also solo the boat frequently...the newer & more modern I20 main can be depowered more effectively than my previous P19.

Also, the convenience and user-friendliness of the I20 is much better than other boats I've sailed. Construction quality is very high, and it has like 20 small but noticable improvements compared to the P19 (ease of rigging, ease of use, downhaul, blocks, rotator, etc....they all add up). It took me 3 years to switch after the first ones were bought by other guys here in SD, and I wish I had done it much sooner. Also, the steering on the I20 is maybe 3 times as responsive as the P19 or H20. I would sometimes go sailing on a friend's I20, then get back on my P19 and it felt like driving a truck by comparison.

As far as the spinnaker goes, once you try one you'll never go back to a non-spinnaker boat. On the I20, it is easy to use the spinnaker either solo or with a non-sailing guest.

Re. F18's, unless you were a much lighter crew (250-280 lbs?), I think the I20 is a better size, esp. for light winds as you say you have. In the typical 8 knot winds of San Diego, many people solo them very easily.

So, I think you should take a test sail. If you try one, I think you'll be convinced like I was.

Sail fast and have fun,
Alan Thompson
I20 - San Diego
http://www.whitecaps.net

Thanks Matt

I,m very interested in the boat -
have a 4 year old I-20 --looking for something new ,
like the 20 ft size and power they provide especially in larger seas .
Would really of course rather purchase a 20 that fell within a Formula 20 concept or could be equally rated with existing 20s under Texel or Isaf type design measurement -

One thing - please consider changing the spin size to the standard FORMULA oriented 270 or evan 300 sq ft size as opposed to the 350 as is currently used on the N E version Nacra 6/os --
I,ve sailed the larger 400 plus spin in the Worrell -
the 350 and now the 270 ON THE INTER 20 -

THERE IS PLENTY OF POWER AND SPEED IN THE 270 spin size ,
the aspect ratio is correct per mast length 32 - more overlap area OF THE 350 SPIN SIZE is not faster in many conditions ,-is more difficult to hanle or snuff ,--will not close reach ,-will place added loads and strain on all elements of design inc crossbeams mast stays etc . --The small straight downwind speed benifit is not worth the added disadvantages .

Understand that the current spin is already deveoped as applied on the 6/0 ---BUT --please reconsider ,--it is the one factor that would discourage my purchase of one --

Am interested in racing the Tybee next year on one -
just my 2 cents

Interested in Marks questions ,--good ones
and is there a Texel rating calc yet also -for performance comparison .
Carl

Mark, Carl

To address som of your comments on the V20.

During the desgn phase,a crew weight of 350 was used as a baseline for the calculations. This was primarily driven by the market in the US pushing that weight for this class of boat. Optimum weight for any platform is a minomer without stating the wind speed, sea state, and point of sail.

Randy and the Smyth team were tasked with coming up with a sail plan that optimized the limits imposed by an 8'-6" beam, but was easy handle and tunable over a wide range of weather and crew combinations.

Carl: This forum is watched closely by a lot of people looking for some closure on a NA F20 rule. It seams the closest its come is to try and baseline around the I20 platform. This with limited enthusiasm as to be a formula using grandfathered platforms all must change something. As a compromise,a lot of areas race the I20 and NE60 straight up. The mismatch in rigs makes this messy for clean formulas though. Given that the V20 was designed on its own. The 300lb platform was created because it was easily acheivable with traditional materials and methods while maintaining a system with equal or better ruggedness. The boat itself needs to sell for no more than the current 20's on the market, I20, Fox, etc. Why create a system around carrying an extra 100 lb for no reason.

The true thought in this platform has centered around building something easy to use. The hulls have a unique high aspect centerboard system that does not require gaskets. No maintenance and no worries about turtles, sandbars, rays, coral heads etc.
The main sail being square top comes with all the current touted advantages, on a very tunable mast. It's also reefable for the big blows. The jib sytem is unique in being drop setand fully battened. It can be depowered in a blow without the normal luffing. It is sized and has overlap so it is efficient reaching unlike the I20, yet still self tacks for the set and forget crew work. The area you mentioned as a concern that has had significant debate and thought put into it is the spin set up. The I20 spin at 270sf relative to the 60 is easy to handle becuase of its aspect ratio and the location of its attachment points, not because of its size. The spin setup on the V20 has stay sheeting and an aspect similar to the I20 and a clean snuffing system withou dumpy bags. Although larger, it should be no more difficult to handle than the I20 spin. Its location and aspect ration means it will close reach as well. This is only an issue in the lightest of winds anyway on either platform, while the larger jib set up will more easily make the transition to jib reaching conditions.

The project continues on track with the hulls out of the molds this week.

While 1 platform can not solve everything, let them know what issues are a concern, because in the early phases of the prototype, al lot can be added to make this a sailors designed boat.

Matt

Sounds great Matt
looking forward to seeing the boat in action .

One very smart promo thing the ht 18 jav did was get Randy and Matt to race them early on setting a comparativley high profile of the boats true speed potential ,---All we heard after the Spring Fever regatta two years ago was how much faster than the I-20 it was ,-
--It was me winning the I-20 class at S F they were comparing Matt and Randy to , I,m not that great of buoys racer and race buoys twice a year matbe ,-We won S F just by luck having missed timed two starts by more than 30 seconds late in very light flucky wind conditions .--We saw at the last Tybee 500 a truer comparison of true boat speed . When the similar lightweight jav gets its conditions it is sometimes comperable . ---So much for timed average handicap type systems ,as unrealiable ,VERY DEPENDANT ON WHO IS SAILING WHAT ,in what type of conditions.

Any way have some good sailors on them to introduce them in major events entered . --
Congrates again ,--sounds like a great lightweight reefable seaworthy fast cat design ,-
Carl