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Practicing for boat speed #21046
06/17/03 10:48 AM
06/17/03 10:48 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 139
Daytona Beach FL
TheoA Offline OP
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TheoA  Offline OP
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How would one practice for boat speed by yourself (no other boats to sail against)
Are there easy to install electronics out there that will give me a visual reading on boat speed?
Obviously I get the major changes, but what about small adjustments like baberhauls and job cars. Every .5 knot counts....


94 N5.5SL
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Practicing for boat speed [Re: TheoA] #21047
06/17/03 11:03 AM
06/17/03 11:03 AM
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MauganN20 Offline
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get a GPS

Re: Practicing for boat speed [Re: MauganN20] #21048
06/17/03 11:09 AM
06/17/03 11:09 AM
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Burlington, Vermont USA
K
Kevin Rose Offline
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Quote
get a GPS


Without another boat, it can be pretty difficult. A GPS does not account for all the variables. Sure, it shows speed, but it does not account for the variability of the wind. (Was that extra half-knot due to improved trim, or a slight increase in wind speed?)


Kevin Rose N6.0na #215 Lake Champlain (New England's "west coast") Burlington, Vermont
Re: Practicing for boat speed [Re: Kevin Rose] #21049
06/17/03 01:12 PM
06/17/03 01:12 PM
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MauganN20 Offline
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well, not to brag or anything, but I race motorboats when I'm bored :P

Re: Practicing for boat speed [Re: MauganN20] #21050
06/17/03 01:41 PM
06/17/03 01:41 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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Actually, that sounds like a good idea. If you can't find another sailboat to pace against, you could use a powerboat for a pace boat. Probably more accurate feedback for you, too, since the powerboat would be able to maintain a constant speed and would not have the variables the sailboat has.

Re: Practicing for boat speed [Re: MauganN20] #21051
06/17/03 03:03 PM
06/17/03 03:03 PM
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Austin, TX
Aggie97 Offline
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Using GPS or Motorboats you still have the same problem that Kevin described.



-Brandon N5.5u #424 Austin, TX
Re: Practicing for boat speed [Re: Aggie97] #21052
06/17/03 03:22 PM
06/17/03 03:22 PM
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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I'm not so sure that's a problem. When you are pacing against another sailboat, the number of variables must compound dramatically, because you are dealing with the variables concerning both boats and the relative skills of the skippers.

You still won't necessarily know whether it's a wind change or a trim change causing the speed difference, but at least you will know that it is something to do with your own boat and not the other boat.

Last edited by Mary; 06/17/03 03:25 PM.
Re: Practicing for boat speed [Re: TheoA] #21053
06/17/03 03:37 PM
06/17/03 03:37 PM
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St Croix Virgin Islands
vicatman Offline
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seems to me if you have fairly constant wind....and certain traveler,downhaul and outhaul settings you could make changes and see how that affects the boat speed....the GPS will tell you how the changes affects speed

Re: Practicing for boat speed [Re: vicatman] #21054
06/18/03 06:47 AM
06/18/03 06:47 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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There are "speedometers" you can get, too, that involve having an impeller in the water that feeds speed information to a read-out display on deck. Speedtech Instruments, which advertises in Catamaran Sailor, has one of these available. You can find their contact information by clicking on "Advertisers" in the index down the left side of the catsailor welcome page.

Rick has tried one out, and it works, but, as with GPS or any other device, it still will not account for fluctuations in wind speed.

So I guess we need a new invention that factors in the wind speed. Now there's a challenge! And then, of course, we need to factor in the ability of the helmsman to immediately adjust to wind shifts. Now there's an impossibility!

It's fun to watch the boat speed numbers go up and down, but then you are left scratching your head and wondering, "Was it something I did, or was it Mother Nature?"

Re: Practicing for boat speed [Re: Mary] #21055
06/18/03 08:09 AM
06/18/03 08:09 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Without some serious cash (and about 100 extra lbs), you really have to race your boat repetitively to get a feel for how your speed is. Use your recreational time on the water to practice tacking and gybing as well as starts and mark roundings off a bouy. 50% of any speed you have on the race course will be lost performing these manuevers because mistakes here cost you dearly. Then on the race course you can really focus on boat speed with your competitors because your mechanics are good and second nature.

On big dollar yachts, they will have wind direction, wind speed, current speed, current direction (bottom sonar), hull speed, and heel all tied into a computer that can give them all sorts of information about their sailing efficiency.


Jake Kohl
Re: Practicing for boat speed [Re: Jake] #21056
06/18/03 08:30 AM
06/18/03 08:30 AM
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MauganN20 Offline
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Yeha, on the Schock 35 I race on, after you go around the course once and input the gps coordinates of the marks, it tells you how to sail the course most efficiently.

I think its cheating, the skip thinks its smart

Re: Practicing for boat speed [Re: MauganN20] #21057
06/18/03 08:42 AM
06/18/03 08:42 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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They have all that stuff for the big boats, but I don't think all that electronics would fit onto a beach cat...or be feasible for a potentially underwater environment. That's why it is more of a challenge to come up with something.

I think we should stick with doing it the old-fashioned way, by trial and error in race conditions with other boats.

Re: Practicing for boat speed [Re: TheoA] #21058
06/18/03 08:59 AM
06/18/03 08:59 AM
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Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
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Its all just time on the boat, and boat against boat testing

Re: Practicing for boat speed [Re: pitchpoledave] #21059
06/18/03 09:42 AM
06/18/03 09:42 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 139
Daytona Beach FL
TheoA Offline OP
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Quote
Its all just time on the boat, and boat against boat testing


I agree, although once you are comfy with all conditions, practicing without indications of how you are doing, is, well, just having fun....

Nothing wrong with that I suppose!


94 N5.5SL
Re: Practicing for boat speed [Re: TheoA] #21060
06/18/03 06:31 PM
06/18/03 06:31 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 139
Daytona Beach FL
TheoA Offline OP
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Daytona Beach FL
Garmin GPS 76S a good one to get? I plan on doing some distance races as well.

Let me know!


94 N5.5SL
Speed Testing is the ONLY Way! [Re: TheoA] #21061
06/19/03 09:53 AM
06/19/03 09:53 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

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There is really no way you can improve boat speed without relativity to another boat.
You have gotten a lot of advice -- a lot of it may be right. But, I don't believe there is any magic place to set your main or jib. Everything is relative to the wind, the seas, your crew weight.., in other words, the old Three W's of Wind, Water and Weight.
That is where Speed Testing comes in.
In my latest book, "Sailing Drills:" there is a section on Speed Testing. Basically, you need at least two boats. One boat must stay the same no matter what -- you need a constant.
You should line up so that one boat does not affect the other's wind. Then sail for about two minutes and determine if one boat went faster and by how much, and one boat sailed higher and by how much.
Record that and do it over and over until you have established an average.

Now experiment with changes on one of the boats.., should be the one that is performing worse. You can try jib lead positions, mast rotation, mast rake, sheet tension, and even different styles of sailing.
But, be sure to try only one at a time and try it a number of times to get realistic data.
If the winds are fluky, forget about it -- try it on another day when the winds are pretty steady.
By the way, the data you would be gathering would be valuable ONLY for that wind, water and weight condition. Keep that in mind.

I know we spent close to a week here in Key Largo a number of years ago tuning the N6.0NA and came up with some pretty good numbers. Then folks started sailing with a more radical aft mast rake and our numbers went out the window. Sorry to say we never Speed Tested again after that to find the new magic numbers.

Also, the "loose nut on the tiller" could be a problem. Some folks are pinchers.., and others are footers. A good way to find out which you are is to try my "Eyes Closed Drill."
Simply go out sailing with another similar boat and get in what you think is your groove. Once there the Skipper closes his or her eyes and sails by feel. You are only eliminating of you senses -- you still have 4.., or maybe 5 in some cases, left. Use them. Feel the wind in your hair on your arms, feel the waves, the heeling of the boat, listen to the telltales tickle on the sail, etc.
After sailing for about 5 minutes, relate how you are doing with the other boat. One boat may be much higher (pincher) and the other much lower (footer).
In my Sailing Seminars I do this drill with the entire class and find it amazing the differences in helmsmanship.
Once you discover you are a natural footer, practice working on going higher. If you discover you are a pincher, practice driving off and getting more speed.

To give you exact place to put your jib settings, how must mast rake, how hard you sheet, etc. would be impossible to do in this armchair position we are all sitting in right now.
It takes work.

Generally, I will say this. The first day of every seminar I try to espy general sheeting of each boat. I would have to say that usually 90 to 100% of the students are not sheeting the main enough. The 90% is exact, and once in a while I will get a student that understands you need to sheet the main much harder than the jib. But, that is rare.
Of course, as mentioned in previous posts, you can't sheet in tight until you get flow across the boards and rudders. Once that flow is established, you can sheet the main very hard in most cases. Most folks err in the direction of losing gobs of power by not sheeting enough.
So, in essence, with your main not sheeted too tight, you are powering up (in 2nd gear), but not pointing very well. Once there is flow across the boards, you can sheet in and flatten out the sail (shift to high gear).

At any rate,
Good luck
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Speed Testing is the ONLY Way! [Re: RickWhite] #21062
06/19/03 12:00 PM
06/19/03 12:00 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 139
Daytona Beach FL
TheoA Offline OP
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Daytona Beach FL
WOW!

Thanks for that reply Rick!!! That was great.

btw, thank-you to everyone else that replied too!


94 N5.5SL
Re: Practicing for boat speed [Re: TheoA] #21063
06/19/03 02:44 PM
06/19/03 02:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 223
Western New York
wyatt Offline
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Western New York
Just did this Sunday when my daughter was at the tiller, and we did use a GPS; we would tweak something, then watch the increase/decrease in speed. We could duplicate it by going back to the original setting. I think it's the cheapest way to fool around with settings.

Wyatt


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