There's a lot of sub forum stuff on here that is/hopes-to-be/was the basis for brand new cat classes. After reading through random bits of the F12 and F14 pages there is a significant disconnect between the target audiences and specs that different people propose such cat classes should aspire to (or are attributing their lack of success).

My reading of all these posts in various forums seems to show different desires from different world markets (US/Oceania/Europe). I want to know why? What is so different between these Western cultures that leads to such differences in opinions and ultimately, the success or failure of different design concepts in different parts of the world?

The Aussie skiff classes are a prime example... They are hardly sailed outside Aus but are popular here. The Bethwaites seemed to work out what the world market wanted when they were introducing the 29er and dropped the double trapeze + more sail area for a more forgiving single trap design (to the possible detriment of immediate popularity in Aus - there were plenty of local classes that were 29er-ish already).

My reading seems to present the following generalisations of cat sailors based on geographic location (yes, they ARE generalisations, don't take offence I know not everyone fits into the mould!):

Oceania: Home build, light weight, fast, fragile is ok because everyone has a neighbour who can fix it in their garage overnight for a beer.
Europe: Factory build, weight is ok to sacrifice for robustness, but it must be fast.
US: Factory build, fast is nice, but slow is ok if it means the design is convenient, has big fleets or amateurs can sail them.

What do you think?

I personally think that the main driver is not cultural, but geographic and infra-structural differences.
-) water temperature
-) wind and wave strength, range
-) open water or not
-) beach surveillance

-) income, labour-spare time
-) access to beaches, lakes
-) fees, taxes
-) clubs, dealers

Even across Europe, conditions aren't constant. Are you refereing to cats or to boats in general?
Also this forum may not be representative, even for cat sailor in Europe.

Cheers,

Klaus

I agree with Klaus. If I have a look at the boats sailed in my club, we have everything between Hobie 16s, Darts and NACRA 500s, Tornados and F18s till latest A-Kats. I think it is very difficult to classify a german, let alone an european cat-sailor. However, what I can't remember ever seen in Germany are boats like the Hobie Wave or Getaway, etc..

I can only speak for what I have seen in the past 14 years here in Florida but it has been my observation that people in close geographic proximity will gravitate towards the same type of boats, in order to achieve critical mass and have enough of one type to form a solid fleet for racing.

In the days before time it was the Hobie 16's. But there were few other options, so "Everyone" raced a Hobie 16. But later the Hobie 18's, the Nacra 6.0's and Hobie 20's came along, then the Inter 20's introduced us to spinnaker-cat bouy racing, the F18's developed and now the F16's. As more people joined in there was demand for slight variations in design to accomodate personal taste, witness the rebirth of the A class, and the Wave class is growing too.

Many of these boats are being raced by the exact same people who started a long time ago on Hobie 16's, but some, like myself, are converts from Mono's or just plain new to the sport. Like I tell new people who want to get into the sport, "Find a club near you that has a good racing program, find out what they are racing, buy a used one, and go learn to race it."

The "type" of boat is not important and subject to change about every 5-10 years anyway, so you might as well buy what has a decent enough fleet size to make the racing interesting, as long as it suits your budget and crew requirements.

Here in the States, the big guys race the I20's, the mediums race the F18's and us smaller people or part time Uni racers sail F16's or A cats. I have noticed that in other countries, there are much more "Homebuits". The only homebuilds we see here in the States are the A cats.

If I had the budget I'd have one of each, and a 60' racing tri, and a big Gunboat cat to live on! But given my budget and crew (or lack thereof), I'm very happy with the F16 fleet that has now developed in Florida.

I think there is no "One World-One Cat" solution with a perfect cat that suits everyone, world wide. Local economics, cultures, fleets, used boat availability, etc. will determine what is going to be raced in any given area and that won't be the same, world over, it's not even the same from one area of the States to the next.

I'm just glad we speak the same "Cat Language" the world over, and thankful Rick and Mary have provided a free web-board for us to keep in touch! Fast is fun and that's the same, world wide.

also, depends on what dealers were selling in the area. we have more mystere's here in the tampa area than any other area i have heard of (except Quebec where they were built and there still is a school) because there were several dealers who brought the brand to america

Andrew's right. Dealers still drive the market here. There are fewer clubs, not as many fleets.

IMO, the diversity of cat choices has not been a good thing because of money.

Two jet skis can be bought for the price of approx one performance cat. Cat builders need to make improvements to keep up. If they don't sell much above their break-even numbers, then there isn't going to be much money left over for innovations -- especially innovations making the cat more user friendly for the jet ski, bass boat, pontoon boat, salt-water fishing crowd to say, hey, instead I wnat to look at a cat...

Oops, left out converting the mono crowds...

The boats that are sailed are primarily determined by the activeness and marketing skills of the local dealer or the local class association. I have moved around Oz a lot sailing over the last two years and it amazes me that small different fleets are sailed at most clubs. Same class would be an ideal but diversity makes it interesting if the yardsticks are up to it.

The dealers have no real effect here, at least as far as the more serious boats go. The local dealers are selling the roto-molded cats, but none of those show up for any events. Despite being invited, the answer from the dealers has been "the days of big cat fleets are over". So, as they are no player, and what seems to be taking off is the A-Cat and F-16s. The F-16s particularly because it seems to fit those who have gotten the spin bug, but like the flexibility and not having the need for constant competent crew. The new designs a very nice...

Not as simple as I thought...

Wonder if Mary would allow putting rigging and setup innovations on the "What have you done for SAILING today?" thread... or open up a separate setup thread?



I don't argue against diversity. I argue against way too many complex or awkward setups.

It's all about timely support. Education. Technical support. Location support. More serious boats get their support from local communities.

There is a lot of technical/education support being tried. Hobie does a great job of offering published technical support.

Lots of sailing forums now recommend using the "search" feature because the same setup questions get asked over and over over time and forgotten.

Most boats are engineered for ease of set up. Spin systems add complexity but there are ways to eliminate some steps. A common, measured system for racing boats of all types will be necessary in the near future. Getting enough of any design or type boat at one location gets harder each year. With the collapse of the Hobie fleets, especially in the SE, the racing scene has been drastically reduced. Even the TheMightyHobie18 finds itself
racing open class!

Yes. All manufacturers do work on engineering ease of setup, and the nicer designs coming out are better. When it's about revitalizing fleets or getting noobies oriented, it is all about rigging setup speed and ease though.



That is true here as well. When I said dealers drive the market, I meant they have control. They can have negative effect or they can drive it up, as Andrew mentions, where a Canadian dealer in Florida is making Mystere popular.

The forum is a good source of info. Manufacturer technical publications are a good source. But nothing drives things like getting information person-to-person. New sailors go mostly to dealers for technical support. Or they have a group of fellow boat owners that they get help from.

There are a huge number of boat owners in this area. The cat is a fantastic ride once you get the hang of things but the learning curve is long. Anything to shorten the curve...

i should amend that with ..these were American dealers (Robbie Daniels, Rocco, etc) these were "the modern -in boat" back in the day... we are the legacy and members of the dead cat club... but we have 6 or 7 mystere's on the beach on a good day and another handful that come out every now and again. it is nice to sail with the same cats