Wayne most of the new vipers ive seen dont have f16 logos on their sails. Go sailing and see for your self. They sailed as Vipers.

I aggree with Ace also that it was a spectacular job from Brett and Ryan on the new Aussie boat the "Edge". Great to see. Maybe some of you guys should talk to Brett about building you an uber F16. If you've got the frieght, looks like he could do it.

Aido; do you think that the Edge might be a game-changer for the F18 ?

No! The F18 class rules ensure close racing no matter what your on. I am impressed with how its turned out tho. obviously has some pace.

Err, Wayne.. I hate to break it to you but every F18 does have a measurement certificate and they all rate exactly the same. Same sail size, Same build materials and beams, mast etc, same weight (within a couple of Kg) and all the rest of the measurable items are taken into account and they are all F18 and 101 Texel rating. Can you say the same for F16??

You currently have 25kg weight differences (at least) plus different configurations such as one and two handed (how those two can ever be considered equal is beyond me, and the rating system, yet you seem to think they are equal.. Add in different hull skin, core and beam and mast materials and you might as well just have a class with a handicap rating band, Oh hang on a second... That would be 104! How about you change the class name from F16 to something more suitable: "101-105 class" has a catchy ring to it.

But you can't really afford to speak now can you?..

I think the F16 fairs well to the mediocre boats that you promote so I can see no harm in your attempts to discredit the class by comparison.

Anyway you can save yourself the trouble of harassing the F16 class anytime YOU like (and don't let the door hit you on the way out).

Macca: Why do Aussies like Holland so much?
On Texel you cant walk anywhere and trip over one of them! Is it the nice weather? ;p


(Not that I mind though, all of them are really nice).

Macca,

Are you sure they would all rate the same if MEASURED under TEXEL?

TEXEL just rates F18’s the same way SCHRS does and applies max and min values for the items that the F18 ruleset does not control that TEXEL and SCHRS do measure; SUCH as Plate Aspect ratio and area (Texel). Texel grants “type approval” to any F18 to sail under the generic F18 rating; SCHRS does the same for the F18. Texel and SCHRS do the same for other such formula classes.

IF a Tiger / C2 / Wildcat / Shockwave WERE FULLY measured under SCHRS or TEXEL they WOULD have different ratings; in fact until about 18 months ago; the TIGER and others did have a different SCHRS from the basic F18 rating.

Macca loves the F18 class so much that he registered himself as a Nacra Infusion sailor and not as a Infusion F18 sailor.

I guess what is good for the goose is not good enough for the gander.

Wouter

Simon,

I think you will find that the board aspect ratio will be so close that the Texel rating difference will be so small as to not make even half a point difference, same for mast height, sail area (all very close) and all the other factors that count. Any small difference in the rating would seem to have no impact on the quality of the racing and the boats seem very equal.

Currently the boats that you call F16 are running a rating difference of 5 points or so, hardly a close thing.

Now, I am sure Wouter or someone else will jump in here and claim that such diversity is what gives F16 the strength over the other tightly controlled rules and it will eventually win out over these draconian rule sets... But in all honesty, thats total bullsh*t and you all know it.

Gee Mac,

Did your girlfriend give you the cold shoulder again last night ?

Man, do you have issues !

Wouter

I don't understand what the problem is. If you are going to sail a boat in a mixed fleet then you'd be a bit silly not to take the best rating from the system being used for that particular regatta. The Viper in particular seems a pretty versatile piece of gear as it can rate with the heavier 104 group which seems to be popular in parts of Europe, then it can compete successfully against the lightweights when sailing in events governed by F16 formula rules. And it doesn't necessarily need to be steered by professional sailors to win F16 events. The most recent Australian National Title was won by a Viper with weekend sailors on board.
The various measurement rating systems seem to have taken a commonsense approach to formula classes by giving them one rating. Imagine trying to do individual ratings for all the A Class designs around the world!
Perhaps I misunderstand your comment on measurement certificates Wayne, but I'm very surprised to hear that you don't need a certificate to participate in an F16 start. Seems essential for a formula class to me. If you don't have a measurement certificate don't bother turning up for any regional, national or world event in A's that I've attended. That's also the case for F18's in AUS I think.
Anyway - gotta go and wash my sailing gear now - pretty cold sailing day here today - 21 degrees centigrade.

last I spoke to Brett he wasn't interested in developing a F16.. But money talks..

His team are very good technicians.. Great layup..

maybe its because not even the kings of chopper gun spray boat building can find a way to make a heavier 18 footer..

Guys and Gals, obviously my poor attempt at sarcastic humour has missed most of you. My dig at the F18's ( if taken seriously as some of you have ) was probably a poor example as the F18's are a very mature class and over the 15 or so years of existance the boats have all narrowed down in design to a box rule. many of the earlier generation boats were extemely differnet in design and weight.

That box rule has limited design changes to such an extent that the boats are now somewhat antiquated in design ( that should get a Macca reply ) and many now feel it could do with a bit of updating, the downside of that of course is the out dating of the older boats ( which is a differnet thread topic please ). The upside is that it is probably the most successful class around at the moment although there are a number of murmurings on the internet about changes to weight etc to modernise the class before a more modern design can take peoples interest ( one only has to look at the new Nacra F20 and the Viper and the number of their sales already )

If the F16's were allowed to evolve for 15 years as per the F18's then they too will all be pretty even on weight and design, again limited by the box rule. Already many designs are around class weight after only 7 years or so of the classes existance. It is a narrow thinking person who only thinks about the "now" situation and not the long term class benefits of a bit of forward thinking in the box rules.

Apparently the guys can sail!

Look forward to seeing them at the F18 and T Worlds.

And Brett is an industry professional just like the Goodall's

Mission accomplished. Thanks all for your participation. You're all soooo predictable

I have stated many times I believe.. Brett is a class act..

Could I build an F18 that is class legal, but choose to make it 210kg instead of 180? So Similar to what Greg has done wth the Viper but with an F18?

Andrew: My apologies. There is absolutely no excuse for this!

Sad thing is Sproaty and Brouwer were the only two F16's there, and they were racing under the Viper's own handicap.

Wayne, all the F18s might seam very similar but in fact they do have thier differences, some point well, some are good in waves, some are easy for Joe Bloggs to jump on and sail, but the formula works, and really all the designs can race evenly, you have a class where you can pick and chose designs but it isnt a arms race