Hi,

last weekend we was out distance racing with the big monohulls. My wife was crewing on the Tornado and we was having a good time in low winds. Typical 1 - 2 meters a second.
As we passed an crossing fjord the wind changed to a beam reach and 11 - 13 meters a second (measured with wind instruments on a mono). We was of course having a good time, albeit wind against stream made some quite steep waves. The monos surrounding us was properly impressed..

After rounding a mark, we had to go upwind against the 11 - 13 m/s wind. This was only the third time my wife sailed the Tornado, and the first time in a trapeze harness.
We abandoned the race after about half an hour of beating, and reached off home instead.

The reason we abandoned was that I did not want to sail dead downwind in that amount of wind with my wife. As it is now, she is keen to go sailing and trapezeing again. But after a pitchpole I dont think I would see her anywhere close to the Tornado again.

All this brings me to my question: When will a 16, 18 or 20 feet long cat pitchpole. How hard does it have to blow if your hulls are in good shape (clean og smooth) and you sail dead downwind. Both crew on the back of the boat, and using both bows for bouancy forward.
I have stuffed both bows dead downwind several times with the old Tornado rig. But have not had an opportunity to try it with the new rig..

Any good ideas about 'survival sailing' downwind i heavy winds ?

Is it prudent to avoid the kite when it blows above 10 m/s ?

Btw: An 28 feet monohull averaged 23 knots with spi downwind in those conditions..

For those not using the metrical system, here is a small comparison table.

2.5 m/s = 4 knots
4,5 m/s = 9 knots
6,5 m/s = 13 knots
9,5 m/s = 18 knots
12,5 m/s = 24 knots
15,5 m/s = 30 knots

First which rig do you have, it was not clear to me

new rig or big rig- square top main, large jib spinnaker
Hard rig - pinhead main and small jib pre-bent mast
soft rig - pinhead main and small jib

From your description, you are a hell of a sailor to have kept control of the boat. Pitchpoling is always a risk around and of course above 15 knots depending on the weight placement of crew, oncoming rollers, and the setting of the sail. Definitely depower the sail to spill more air. I think you have figured this out already and were wise to head home in those conditions with such a high power boat and inexperienced crew.

"survival mode" downwind?

I travel in, and keep the sheet in a bit and keep it pointed low.

Have you ever seen a plane fly backwards? or stalled?
Sailing stalled out (falling in an airplane) with managed projected area (twist or travel) is the key to reducing
the excess of wind power you are experiencing. Every notice how slow it is when the crew oversheets the jib,
he is depowering/STALLING the sails.

I addition to getting your weight back, pull your main traveller (& jib) near the center of the boat with
minimal twist(sheet in tight), steering ALMOST Dead Down Wind. The closer the mainsail is to the centerline
the smaller the projected sail area to the wind reducing wind force and pitchpoling. This sail configuration
puts the sail in a STALL, like an airplane falling through the air NEGATING lift.

So downwind try sheeting in the jib in the puffs to stall out the slot & negate lift.
To depower more travel in the main to reduce projected sail area.
To depower more and stall out reduce twist(sheet in)
and enter the STALLED OUT ZONE.

This usually occurs when in regatta with an approaching storm, as you noted.
My experience winds hit something above 30 kn but below 40 on a H-20, GPS said
we were 3 miles offshore, the bows stayed nice and high the whole time untill we ran out of water.

Great wind & waves,
Chris

Thanks for the answers. I will definately try to bring in the main traveller to reduce projected sail area when I have the opportunity. Great example from "sail7seas" re. a stalling airplane. I got the idea at once, but I also got some visual imagery of 'crash and burn' sailing in my head.


I can see the logic in doing this, but I'm also a bit concerned about what will happen if the wind shifts 15 degrees and makes you round up :-) (Or if I make a mistake steering and gets the wind in from a higher angle)

Anyway, the boat is rigged with the 'new' Tornado rig. Square top main, large hi-aspect self tacking jib and a kite.

Regarding "survival mode". When sailing with my usual crew, we usually refer to sailing in high winds where we dont feel in control as "survival sailing". Sounds almost like "Survival training" and makes us sharpen up and be aware of what we are doing. How we came up with this terminology is another high-wind tale..

Would setting the kite help keeping the bows up in high winds ? I have seen arguments for both setting it and keeping it in the bag/snuffer. But have normally not set it if it is really blowing, have just gone higher on the reaches instead..

For steering DDW try using the following (3)three indicators,
that kind of 'check and balance' each other.
First, the bow wind indicator.
Second, pay attention to the feel on helm.
You can maintain a very slight weather to neutral helm with the sails stalled out.
If the helm goes a lee you WILL eventually jibe,
so push the helm away from you to get back to neutral helm.
If the weather helm helm increases pull the stick to get back/close to neutral helm.
Finally, with the jib strapped in (stalled) watch which side the jib FAVORS, as it oscillates
back and forth (how it behaves) out of the corner of your eye, and react accordingly.
This is useful when it is raining so hard you can not see the bridal fly.

In Kevin's picture you can see the crew let both jib and main out, opening the slot(lift),
increased sail area, etc. I have found offshore in squalls the shifts are gradual enough
to react, but ounce you get close to high land or on lakes geographical shifts hard to
anticipate/predict. Looking behind you, often helps, as you can sheet in before the puff (dark water)
hits you. Its fun watching the other boats go over next to you, as they let OUT their sails.
As for the kite perhaps someone else can enlighten us?

Thanks again, I will test it out when it starts blowing again. As for geographical shifts.. We have lots of those, as I sail mostly in a fjord. Fun but frustrating some times.

Kevins picture is not representative. I believe this is John Forbes and Darren Bundock doing "The blast". The blast is a drag race competition usually held after the other regattas have finished. The point is to reach along a measured distance as fast as possible, and they did not win this event. Altough I bet the spectators was pretty impressed.

Perhaps we should find some Worrel 1000 veteran and pick his head about the kite..

Hi Rolf

good topic ,
Think many new catsailors get used to luffing the boat up into the wind direction going to windward and close reaching .-Many then continue this luff UP reaction when sailing downwind .
The most difficult aspect for catsailors new to the spin is getting accustom to bearing OFF the wind in gusts .

Realizing exactly where the wind is and how it is flowing across the sails and understanding when to bear of or head up ,-this transition from flow direction is key to staying upright ,-as we all do in rounding C mark .
Earlier posters had difficulty with this in higher winds for this reason ,-the transition and power increase .
Sailing down-wind the sails are slightly stalled which reduces force on them ,-as we head up to the new course we are heating it up momentarily until we reach the opposite upwind mode of luffing up inside the wind direction again .
Keeping maximum speed through this transition and out on the wire are important ,understanding -moment,- boat speed ,-wind direction ,-the stuff of sailing ,--sailing well ,--we all learn by trial and error ,we all take some lumps in doing so , its part of the sport .

One thing you have with the T CAT DESIGN IS AN EXTREMELY WELL DESIGNED CRAFT , BUT --it was designed originaly with a pin top main sail with less sail area and no spin .
The very fine bow sections as orginally designed allow the T to slice through chop and small waves . NOW the added power of the new rig will power those fine sectioned low volume bows into waves and will keep going .Someting the original design did not antisipate ,--a larger sq top main and spin the added forces from them .
We see most new spin rigged designs with much more volume forward . The T is ONE OF the most competitively raced class at the top levels so excellent technique and boat tuning modifications set up for higher winds and seas will compensate ,-trap locations of crew ,-sailing more downwind angle with spin ,-depowering the main ,-etc.
The spin does help provide some lift downwind but also increases speed off the backs of waves and into the next .
Steering through very confused seas with irregular patterns or crosswaves with tidal current while maintaining this awareness of wind angle becomes the task that top skippers have {almost } mastered .

Evan the top Worrell -Tybee teams still flip ,--sometimes numerous times in a leg of the race .
Safety lines to keep the crew in place on the wire and footstraps are a must have in these conditions .

It is some of the most fun you can have on a cat ,-strapped in trapped off the back ,shute up ,--surfing down and flying off the back of big waves ,
-especially exciting at night .



Have fun
Carl

More good advice here!

You mentioned de-powering the main while sailing with the spi. Do you really propose to use lots of downhaul in hard wind ? I would believe the compression forces on the mast to exceed the limits if you did ?

Otherwise, stuffing the bows with the old pinhead main is easily done. You dont need the new rig to do a proper 'submersion'

Your note about taking off one wave to stuff the bows into the next is now written in letters of fire in my book. I guess having lots of weight at the outmost back of the boat is important. I weight in at 92 Kg and my most regular crew at almost 100 Kg, so we always hope for som real wind when competing.

BTW: I saw a really awsome pitchpole executed in this way on the video "Awesome Aussie Skiffs". Launched off a wave and stuffed the nose into the next. Crew went flying and instant pitchpole. The video is highly reccomended.

Hello,
i have experience sailing cats in strong wind (no spi though).
for me the idea of over sheeting the sails downwind is theoretical and anti productive. as sail600 mentioned keeping up your speed is critical, especially in the jibes. jibbing is when a capsize is most likely to occur in a blow.
steering with the waves and surfing is crucial. usually you don't go dead down wind(DDW). you reach up a hair and sheet in a bit. then you can bear off in the big gusts and even sheet out. technique being the difference on weather or not you go over. with no spi. it's ok to head up when you get to the wave in front of you. if you don't you will auger into it and possibly pitchpole.
for me the traveler and barber hauler are all the way out. sails sheeted enough to avoid luffing except in the big gusts. do your jibes on the top of a wave. if you match the wind speed with hull speed the boom won't slam that hard. after it goes acrooss, the boat will shoot down the face of the wave. deliberate and percise tiller action required. also pull the boom down on the jibe to reduce the slam effect.
without the spi. you wouldn't be out on the wires. then you don't have to reach up so high and can go DDW in the biggest gusts. also it easier to pitchpole whilst flying a hull because all the pressure is on the leeward hull causing it to be further underwater. if you get a big gust with the leeward hull already depressed there will be less bow above water when you go to bearoff making pitchpole a greater possability. if the bows dig in and everyone holds on and sheets out you could save it.
these ideas are for a cat w/no spi. sailing in the ocean in winds above 20 knots on various cats ranging from H16 to tornado.
you may not get to the mark first if you don't fly the hull downwind in high wind, but surfing the swells with both hulls mostly in the water is quite fun. whereas jumping over the back of a wave whilst on the wire downwind and augering in at the bottom doesn't sound that appealing to me.
please pardon spelling and punctuation errors. -dr

The following happened to me a few weeks ago and I still can't figure out what I should do in these circumstances:

Sailing off the wind on a beam reach we're running down the beach hauling gluteous maximus...wind at about 15knots. 4 to 6' waves are coming from nearly the same direction and would be quartering off our stern if we were sitting still. When coming down the larger waves the bows are digging in hard into the back of the next wave. Four pitch poles and a lot of cussing later, we gave up.

Question: how do you compensate for gusts and/or the large waves at this attitude? If you turn downwind to depower, you're steering deeper into the trough and harder into the back of the next wave. If you turn up to ease the angle into the trough, you're powering up the boat by going into a reach. Will maintaining boat direction but hardening up the sails accomplish the depowering needed? My initial reaction would be to steer up at a higher angle to the waves and trim your sails carefully to depower on the reach.

I had a crew that had never been on a sailboat before so I was a little leary to put him in a situation where he had to constantly react - although in hindsight, that probably would have been better than the four capsizes (BTW, he's still itching to go again). The times I did react and try to steer down, I think I was doing so too late - we were racing and I was coaching him too much and not paying enough attention to our position with the waves.

We don't generally get swells quite that large where I sail in Socal but I love to ride the waves! My P-18 will go down the face pretty well but can dig in. I like to head up if I get overpowered or stuck on a large face but do not sheet in yet. Generally, I have enough boat speed to top the whitecap and while the boat and sails will flay about, that usually gets me through the moment. Hardening up the sails but maintaining the same direction will also work, but my concern would be that the rig would now be tighter and if the boat position shifts slightly relative to the wind, it might make it easier to capsize.

Sheldon
P-18

On the flat water of the inland lakes I sail, when the wind howls its time to sheet in, travel up, drive down and move to the back of the bus. I've run the bow on my 6.0NA down to the foil on a (really) broad reach and never felt like I was going to auger in. However I drive as deep as I can without sailing by the lee, guessing >>135° apparent, which aides in keeping the windward hull down if not just barely out of the water. Gybes are terrifyingly fast when sailing a narrow track. Stopping is a different matter as hitting the beach full bore is bad. More on that when I finally figure out the brakes on this thing. Rounding up into the wind to luff is scary when moving that fast.

Thanks jollyrodgers,

what you describes has been my usual downwind technique up til now. Fast and a bit scary as it feels like the boat takes you for a ride instead of you sailing the boat.
But I will be trying to 'stall out' as described earlier, at the next opportunity (even tough this also sounds scary).

I have never tried to catch the boom during a jibe in heavy wind. But I grab the mainsheet between the blocks early in the jibe, and throws the main over to the new side when I'm almost DDW.

I will attest to the fact that in order to pitch-pole a Nacra 6.0NA you have to bury it up past the main beam. It can be done! (ouch). I'm really beginning to learn to watch over my shoulder when sailing downwind in the heavy stuff!

As a sailor of a shorter hulled boat (Taipan 4.9), sailing downwind in a big blow can be a little hairy at times.

One of the best things we've learned to do is to pull the centreboards up over about 18kts. Keeping them down helps with doing the 'wild thing' under that.

Down the 'back of the bus' is definately the order of the day usually with skipper on windward hull or just inside and crew on leeward hull hanging on for grim death while being firehosed with spray from the leeward bow.

Keeping the downhaul on while going downwind in a blow is fine in my opinion. I've had a few big stacks and some broken battens but the mast is fine. The last thing that you want to be doing is easing it to bag up the sail and give you even more power. Also, with an adjustable wing mast we reduce the rotation angle to depower the rig further.

All this is up to around 25kts and depending on the sea state its still fairly manageable with the traveller somewhere between the footstrap and the inside of the hull. Heading is fairly 'hot' - enough to get the windward hull out or at least put the weight on the leeward one (just be ready to bear off real quick and watch for puffs).

Above 25kts we're pretty much in survival territory and I find that heading lower so you are just above DDW with both skipper and crew sitting on the high side is the way to go (not terribly quick in a racing context but should get you to the bottom mark). I find having the crew sitting on the hull at the top and then the skipper on the tramp somewhere near the top footstrap is the most comfortable (if you can call it that). Some people have one crew out on the wire right down the back of the boat sometimes but you run the risk of getting wiped out by a passing wave. Sheeting the main in even more is also beneficial as it really depowers the top of the rig especially and stops some of the bow-down attitude a little. Only problem is getting over the 'ease out' mentality in the puffs because this will just load it all up again.

Just by-the-by, that photo of John and Darren was taken in Sydney Harbour while training for a world championships I think. The 'Blast' referred to had both of them on trapeze with a standard (non turbo) rig and is a great video to watch if you can find it anywhere.

also, there is a Tornado class forum at the Tornado Homepage if you haven't already seen it.

cheers!

If you decide to trap..... (Crew) try and have your back foot on the rudder and front foot on the very end of the transom. Put front foot in toe strap (to prevent going around the back) and use a panic strap on your harness. Lean out straight and at about 45 degrees backward. Can use kite or jib sheet to help steady and brace yourself to the hull.

The skipper should throw the tiller extension out the back and steer with the cross bar whilst leaning out as far over the rear beam as possible.

This method realy pumps the bows out and is a blast in the heavy stuff with the kite up

ABC:

Whow, Taipan 4.9's.. I want one of those for solo sailing and sailing with our little girl. Got the plans from AHPC a month ago, but to busy sailing these days.

It sounds like you sail the Taipan just like the Tornado without a kite.
I would not hesitate to use the downhaul if we was overpowered without the kite.
With the kite, i guess downhauling the main does not affect the sailplan in the same way and the compression in the mast would be positively huge ?

I'm following the Australian Taipan butt. via your website and discussion group. It sounds like you have a great class going on a really good boat!

The Tornado discussion forum on the ITA website has had issues since day one. On the new web site, which is under construction, they are still referring to the old forum.. I sure hope they get to fix it before they release the new site. I guess these tecnical issues are why there has been so few postings..


Alive:
What kind of Marstrom mast do you use. The 'new' one with thicker walls in the extrusion, or the standard one ? We have got the standard mast, and also a really stiff IYE mast from the 80's.

Thanks for the advice with regards to the kite and trapeezeing. With the crew standing on the rudder, wont that disrupt your helming ? Or has he got most of his weight on the front foot ?

As we are running things by now, the crew trapezes just behind the skipper, on skippers trapeeze. I will introduce him to your concept today

Btw. your website seems to have gone away. The domain seems to have been deleted from all name servers. Better check it out with your ISP before someone comes and 'squats' on it.