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The Big America's Cup - rumors are getting hotter #218382
08/27/10 06:43 AM
08/27/10 06:43 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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From the front page of Sailing Anarchy this morning:
www.sailinganarchy.com

AC

what dreams may come

Mark TurnerWell, the day has come: Rumors from both inside the major teams and out are confirming that the 34th America's Cup will indeed be in wing-sailed cats. Sources in Spain and England agree that Mark Turner, the OC Events chief and the organizer of a portfolio of big events and series - most recently, the Extreme 40 series - will be named head of the new America's Cup Management group, some Defender lobbying is said to have gotten ETNZ excited by the prospect, and Newport is literally crawling with designers from every corner of AC land, including much of the team that designed USA17's wing (remember meeting them on this **** Hour?) And they're here on the company clock.

So while another month will tick by before the official announcement, it's safe to say that a brave new world at the top of the sport is about to emerge, and the cards are about to get shuffled in a big way. Let's just hope they do it right, and in the process, get millions excited by the art of designing and racing sailboats.


Jake Kohl
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: The Big America's Cup - rumors are getting hotter [Re: Jake] #218384
08/27/10 06:53 AM
08/27/10 06:53 AM
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France
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An article in the french press confirms 72' winged cats... With a crew of 12 and an engine (!).

Another tidbit of info, Oracle sailing now owns four extreme 40 out of the 19 build so far.

Re: The Big America's Cup - rumors are getting hotter [Re: pepin] #218386
08/27/10 07:07 AM
08/27/10 07:07 AM

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awesome

Re: The Big America's Cup - rumors are getting hotter [Re: ] #218389
08/27/10 07:29 AM
08/27/10 07:29 AM
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...and will Alinghi be back now that AC34 will be sailed on multiwings?
If it hadnt been for all the courtcases we would have still have been stuck with slow monohulls.
Thank you lawyers! grin

Re: The Big America's Cup - rumors are getting hotter [Re: Tony_F18] #218390
08/27/10 07:38 AM
08/27/10 07:38 AM
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Portland, Maine
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I'm so psyched. I'm letting my relatives in Novato know that I'll be bumming it up on their couch for a week sometime in 2014 :P

Re: The Big America's Cup - rumors are getting hotter [Re: ThunderMuffin] #218393
08/27/10 08:18 AM
08/27/10 08:18 AM
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Jake Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Undecided
I'm so psyched. I'm letting my relatives in Novato know that I'll be bumming it up on their couch for a week sometime in 2014 :P


The location rumors are ugly. There's a lot of talk about the event being hosted outside the US. I think, however, those rumors are a ploy to help San Fran with some momentum push to get through the environmental legislation issues they have run into with the restoration of some of the waterfront.

I didn't think the cats were to have an engine. The previous engine rumors I heard were related to the proposed monohull with a canting keel....but I could be wrong. I would be pissed to see engines back in the game.

Look at the C-class event...it's drama, the mistakes....even Ashby/Spithill are making mistakes. It's made the Little America's Cup an outstanding success thus far. You want excitement? Make sailing the AC cats a physical event (NO engines!) and put just enough crew on it to sail it making boat handling difficult and challenging.


Jake Kohl
Re: The Big America's Cup - rumors are getting hotter [Re: ThunderMuffin] #218394
08/27/10 08:18 AM
08/27/10 08:18 AM
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Northfield Mn
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Hmm, I've got a friend in S.F. too.

Tony- Are you talking about a bi-plane rig like Team Phillips had?


I'm boatless.
Re: The Big America's Cup - rumors are getting hotter [Re: Tony_F18] #218395
08/27/10 08:26 AM
08/27/10 08:26 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Tony_F18
...and will Alinghi be back now that AC34 will be sailed on multiwings?
If it hadnt been for all the courtcases we would have still have been stuck with slow monohulls.
Thank you lawyers! grin


I'm guessing we will see the AC hold even the Mutual Consent Challengers to a more strict reading of the Deed of Gift in the future which ~might~ exclude SNG from challenging again. Could you imagine the heartache if SNG won the cup on the next cycle and we repeated this all over again? However, if I were a betting man, I would bet that part of the post cup legal settlement included a contracted time period that SNG will not challenge for the cup again.


Jake Kohl
Re: The Big America's Cup - rumors are getting hotter [Re: Jake] #218396
08/27/10 08:29 AM
08/27/10 08:29 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
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Don't get me wrong, I love that the next AC will be on big cats with wings but...I don't know if it will be as visually exciting as what we are seeing right now with the Little AC. That is some seriously close, fast, racing!

When you multiply everything (hull length, mast height) by a factor of...4(?) all you've done is quadrupple the money required, and created a logistical issue with the huge wings. I doubt if they will be pushing the bigger cats like these guys are pushing their C cats, (too expensive to crash!) so I don't think it will be as exciting to watch as what we are seeing now. BUT...we can hope!


Blade F16
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Re: The Big America's Cup - rumors are getting hotter [Re: Timbo] #218399
08/27/10 09:13 AM
08/27/10 09:13 AM
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They have to be big.... You can't be too close to the racing on the water without interfering... So... you need a big boat so that Video and spectators can see it from a safe distance with a good lens.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The Big America's Cup - rumors are getting hotter [Re: Mark Schneider] #218400
08/27/10 09:29 AM
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I thought that was why God invented hellicopters?

I don't know if they'll have power boats fast enough to keep up in SF Bay, if the wind is on and the chop is up, that will be a wild ride.


Blade F16
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Re: The Big America's Cup - rumors are getting hotter [Re: Timbo] #218401
08/27/10 09:55 AM
08/27/10 09:55 AM
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St. Louis, MO,
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I can't imagine them sailing those big cats on SF Bay. They were deadly afraid of breakage in SD Bay. There would be serious breakage issues on SF Bay. I guess it might be good for TV though.

PS. I called it a couple of days ago. Beat Jake to a punch for once. Ha.


Mike Hill
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Re: The Big America's Cup - rumors are getting hotter [Re: Mike Hill] #218402
08/27/10 10:16 AM
08/27/10 10:16 AM
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Just my 2 cents: I am happy to see it heading toward multi-hulls, but not the wing. The hard wings don't allow for reduction of sail, at the end of the day you don't drop the sail, throw out the anchor and head home. I don't see any trickle down to boats that anyone in the real world sails. I think once again you will have boats that can sail only in a narrow range of wind and wave conditions. If you want media coverage it needs to be firm, the race starts on this day at this time--be there if you want a chance.
My 2 cents, not worth much is it.


Steve Fisherkeller
P19MX
Re: The Big America's Cup - rumors are getting hotter [Re: Jake] #218403
08/27/10 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Undecided
I'm so psyched. I'm letting my relatives in Novato know that I'll be bumming it up on their couch for a week sometime in 2014 :P


The location rumors are ugly. There's a lot of talk about the event being hosted outside the US. I think, however, those rumors are a ploy to help San Fran with some momentum push to get through the environmental legislation issues they have run into with the restoration of some of the waterfront.


I've heard more about taxes being a huge factor in this decision. CA will have to match the tax breaks offered by Spain and UAE in the previous cup to have a shot. The venue will be whoever wants it most and is willing to do what it takes to make it happen......

Re: The Big America's Cup - rumors are getting hotter [Re: stevefisherkeller] #218404
08/27/10 11:31 AM
08/27/10 11:31 AM

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Originally Posted by stevefisherkeller
Just my 2 cents: I am happy to see it heading toward multi-hulls, but not the wing. The hard wings don't allow for reduction of sail, at the end of the day you don't drop the sail, throw out the anchor and head home. I don't see any trickle down to boats that anyone in the real world sails. I think once again you will have boats that can sail only in a narrow range of wind and wave conditions. If you want media coverage it needs to be firm, the race starts on this day at this time--be there if you want a chance.
My 2 cents, not worth much is it.



I don't see myself putting a wing on my mystere (esp after seeing the videos this week) but...
weren't the new carbon20's made by the same guys working on the bmw tri? Didn't they say some of the tech trickled down from that?

I saw Robbie saying his hull shape (C2) was very similar to the oma's on Alingi's cat?

True, that wing development will have little trickle down to us, but i think the other stuff will have an effect...

Re: The Big America's Cup - rumors are getting hotter [Re: ] #218405
08/27/10 12:17 PM
08/27/10 12:17 PM
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Allowing wings would reduce sheeting loads tremendously, which should negate the motors on the boats as well.

Re: The Big America's Cup - rumors are getting hotter [Re: Timbo] #218417
08/27/10 04:43 PM
08/27/10 04:43 PM
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo

When you multiply everything (hull length, mast height) by a factor of...4(?) all you've done is quadrupple the money required, and created a logistical issue with the huge wings.


When boat length is multiplied by a given factor, sail area and hull surface go up by the square of that factor, hull volume by the cube and structural stresses by more than the cube. My guess is that the price would go up more or less by the cube.

So, if the factor is 75 ft / 25 ft = 3, price would go up 27 times.

If a C Class costs about $ 300,000 (guessing), a 75 ft winged AC cat would cost between $ 2.7 to 8.1 million, or about the same as the Open 60 tris. Not too bad, if we compare with the last ACs.


Luiz
Re: The Big America's Cup - rumors are getting hotter [Re: Luiz] #218422
08/27/10 06:38 PM
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“an island in the Pacifi...
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From Latitude 38:

How Much Do You Wanna Bet . . .

August 25, 2010 – The Bay

That the match for the 34th America's Cup will be sailed on San Francsico Bay? In the wake of yesterday's news that the City would not seek a one-time exemption from the California Environmental Quality Act for the infrastructure improvements necessary for a Cup village, we are all but certain that the next Cup match will be held in Europe. In case you missed it, this editor made a rather lackluster appearance on KQED's Forum Friday morning, at which time the Mayor's office — represented by Kyri McClellan — made it very clear that they would be going after the one-time exemption to the environmental review required by the CEQA.

So why the change of heart? We're guessing that Mayor Newsom has wisely realized that the chances of the 34th America's Cup coming to the Bay are so slim that it's not worth pursuing the exemption. The environmental community has rightly argued that one-time exemptions — the first of which was enacted last October for the City of Industry's bid for an NFL team — represent a slippery slope for the state as they create an opportunity for big business to circumvent environmental protections.

With BMW Oracle Racing giving a September 30 draft-plan deadline for the City as of about 10 days ago, the keystone CEQA exemption would have been a monumental, if not impossible, undertaking. According to McClellan, the bill would have to be introduced and signed by the end of the legislative session on August 31. With pretty much all other pending legislation finalized, this would have meant that the exemption would be a stand-alone bill — introduced in the last seven days of the session, and extremely challenging to pass. As of Friday, McClellan said that the City had been talking with some of the Bay Area's representatives in Sacramento in order to find one willing to introduce the bill. In attempting to make the case for the exemption in an article in the Chronicle last week, Newsom argued that there was no way the Cup would come to the Bay without the exemption. He's right. But what Newsom either didn't realize, or felt like he couldn't acknowledge at the time, was that even with the exemption, there is no way the Cup will come to the Bay.

Much of the debate has pivoted on what we believe is the correct view that Larry Ellison would like to see the Cup contested on the Bay. But we just don't think it's as simple as that. Ellison has a day job and so has delegated the running of the team to his CEO Russell Coutts. We can't imagine Coutts would have signed on without making it clear that all the decisions were his and his alone as he attempts to realize the vision he first thought — incorrectly — he would be seeing through with Ernesto Bertarelli in '07.

If Coutts and Ellison were concerned solely with defending the Cup, they would host the event here in a heartbeat, as an event on the Bay would likely bring fewer challengers into a venue with some distinct hometown advantages. But it would seem that both have an abiding interest in doing what's best for the Cup. And what's best for the Cup, from the standpoint of attracting more teams, more commercial sponsorship, more worldwide profile, and a sustainable existence is to hold AC 34 in Europe. Coutts also has two important things to consider. The first is that if the rumors are true, one or more European countries are offering big money to land the event, and let's face it, Coutts is not running a charity. The second is not pissing off his constituents — the professional sailors — who would be paying about 28% more income tax if the event were in the U.S. than they would pay working under the 12% cap on income tax that was present in Valencia for the 32nd match. Don't kid yourself into thinking this isn't a significant concern for someone like Coutts — he would be giving up a pretty significant chunk of change himself if the rumours of his salary being in the multiple seven figures range are true.

Consider all of this in light of the fact that the nearly all-Kiwi team is based out of Valencia this year, and there are just too many indications that the event won't come here in '13 or '14. We think Newsom understood this when he decided to no longer seek the CEQA exemption. Who knows, if BMW Oracle Racing successfully defends wherever the Cup lands, there just might be a chance we could get the next one.


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
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Re: The Big America's Cup - rumors are getting hotter [Re: hobie1616] #218425
08/28/10 01:23 AM
08/28/10 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by hobie1616
From Latitude 38:


From SA:

Quote
From our cup-crazy friend, who calls himself "SF Treat"

The future of AC34 coming to San Francisco has been in the news in both the Chron and the Examiner lately, and we all knew that the planning stage was going to be like this. Anyone that has dealt with the typical bureaucracy found in our country, and especially in California, knows the bullshittery that can decelerate or even stop something cool from happening. As feared, several of the usual enviro monkey-wrenchers have stepped up to give AC34 in San Francisco a hard time. San Francisco public radio station KQED held a forum on the prospects of holding the AC 34 in SF, and several influential bay area sailors, a representative from the Mayors office, and an advocate from the Sierra Club showed up to let their views be known to the public. You can listen to the entire show online.

The main issue at this point is that SF is seeking an exemption for state environmental reviews in order to basically rebuild a couple of crumbling, red-tagged piers. An Environmental Impact Report (EIR) was completed for Piers 31/32 not that long ago for use as a cruise ship terminal/ office and retail space, and it is believed that the AC 34 will be even less of an impact. The California Environmental Quality Act (CEQA) requires that state and local governments analyze and disclose any potential environmental impacts of certain projects to the public, and due to an incident with another CEQA exemption that happened in Los Angeles, the Sierra Club is wary and has it’s fists up ready to fight.

I would argue that, we as sailors are generally more eco-conscious than those in the general populous. We spend hours out in the open air enjoying our favorite body of water, and I can’t name one sailor that I know that condones polluting the area that they love. In fact most of the sailors that I know will sail out of their way to pluck a wayward plastic bag from the sea, for example. It seems ironic that in one of the largest metropolitan areas in the world like San Francisco, household chemicals, industrial chemicals, plastic debris, the dust from millions of brakes and billions of drips of oil from cars probably take exponentially more of a daily toll on The Bay environment than the rebuilding of a couple of decrepit piers will. Of course the plans should be reviewed, but it sure does seem that there’s instant opposition from the usual suspects, which is unfortunate.

And before the AP even goes down, Michael Endicott an advocate for the Sierra Club and self proclaimed “Bay Sailor” let’s the truth fly, “…already my local chapter has voted against the project based on what they first heard.” During the entire discussion, Mr. Endicott used language that creates an “us vs. them” scenario, with a tone of desiring to create hardship for any forward movement…just because they can. From my perspective, having paid into the coffers of the Sierra Club in the past, this is truly maddening and my feelings are echoed by Richard, a caller to the KQED show from San Mateo, “…this should be a one-time exception…This is just basic power-politics, that’s what it comes down to. They want to be invited to the dance…let’s just let this one event go through.” Let’s hope that their dance doesn’t step on the toes and trip the AC34, before it even starts.

Not like there aren’t other hurdles to clear as the planning for the AC34 moves forward even without the Sierra Club butting in. As stated by Kyri McClellan, America's Cup project manager at the Office of Economic and Workforce Development, a representative of Mayor Newsom’s office, “there are vast amounts of permitting, and I’m not going to go through all of the acronyms…There’s a lot of process ahead of us.” McClellan also pointed out during the interview that even without a CEQA review, there will be plenty of other pathways for assessment and public input, and it’s not like a CEQA exemption will allow a developer to run roughshod over the community as eluded by Endicott. So, lots of bureaucratic wrangling, but the optimistic stance of the Mayor’s office really does seem sincere and in complete support of the AC34-in-SF movement. Definitely a great first step!

And as self proclaimed “Bay Sailor” Endicott shows his nautical knowledge with statements like this, “…some of the stuff that you use when you’re painting and shredding, shaving the boats can actually be pollutants...” I think it’s our duty as sailors to educate the CA chapter of the Sierra Club about nautical issues with a good ‘ol fashioned SA field trip, so here’s whole list of their contacts. As long as you’re in the mood for a field trip, might as well contact Mayor Newsom and tell him that you’re in support of AC 34 in SF, and heck, it probably wouldn’t hurt to talk to the Governator too to get him on board.

To end on the good, Peter Stoneberg, Rear Commodore of the StFYC, nailed it, “…the natural amphitheater has potential to have people line the City Front, and the bridge and the Marin Headlands to see the racing itself.” Thousands of tourists staying in The City, thousands of new jobs, SF on the front of the world sailing stage, minimal environmental impact, a rejuvenated pier and waterfront, what’s not to like? McClellan followed through, “We’re going to showcase the Presidio by lining Crissy Field with spectators for the 34th America’s Cup on the San Francisco Bay…Mayor Newsom has a bold vision for showcasing The Bay to the entire world”

Break out the beer and popcorn, this is going to get good. It will even be better if the Sierra Club, Planning and Conservation League other enviro-orgs, vying for their name in print, lay off the hard lining on this one.

As of today, the City claims to be moving to another process to permit the Cup to come to town, and that they will help build consensus to make it all happen. But one Sierra Club lawsuit could bring everything to a screeching halt, and the Cup to a far off land. Sardinia? Maybe not. But somewhere out there...
08/25/10


Links to the audio on OG article:
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/index_page1.php

Re: The Big America's Cup - rumors are getting hotter [Re: hobie1616] #218431
08/28/10 08:24 AM
08/28/10 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by hobie1616
From Latitude 38:

How Much Do You Wanna Bet . . .
Coutts also has two important things to consider. The first is that if the rumors are true, one or more European countries are offering big money to land the event, and let's face it, Coutts is not running a charity. The second is not pissing off his constituents — the professional sailors — who would be paying about 28% more income tax if the event were in the U.S. than they would pay working under the 12% cap on income tax that was present in Valencia for the 32nd match. Don't kid yourself into thinking this isn't a significant concern for someone like Coutts — he would be giving up a pretty significant chunk of change himself if the rumours of his salary being in the multiple seven figures range are true.


That's what its about. If you want to sail for pride, go to the olympics. Someone's got to foot the bill for the expenses and Larry's not going to do it all out of pocket. The environmental excuse is a nice cover though.

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