at tradewinds we had a discussion about when it is ok to take someone head to wind. The situation that brought this up was prior to a start I went below a boat and started bringing them up. They yelled back something to the effect "can't come up anymore, I'm close hauled."
Later, we got out the rule book and could not find anything specific regarding this prior to the start.
?

Prior to the start there is no "proper course" so head to wind is OK. After the gun above "proper course" is off limits.

Right, that's what I thought but can you find it in the rulebook?

The basic rule is 11:


If you acquire a leeward overlap from behind, then Rule 11 is tempered by Rule 15:


But what I think you are referring to is Rule 17:


Also, definition of Proper Course:

Thanks.
regarding rule 15, how much time is "initially?" I understand you can't come in and head up right away- but if they have time to keep clear then I can head them up?
this is prior to start

Check out the "room" definition. Promptly in a seamanlike way.

The short answer to your question is yes - if they have time to keep clear. You should also read Appeal 43.

Case 13 gives full explanation to your situation.

To steal from Matt, above, and clarify.



The way the A catters play the defense is, "If you didn't get hit you obviously had time to respond" . The "time in a seamanlike manner" is pretty much open ended.Some of the fastest guys I know get extremely lethargic in that situation.
Was it Phillip, Jake ,or Trey?

CASE 13
Rule 11, On the Same Tack, Overlapped
Rule 14, Avoiding Contact
Rule 15, Acquiring Right of Way
Rule 16.1, Changing Course
Rule 17, On the Same Tack; Proper Course
Definitions, Proper Course

Before her starting signal, a leeward boat does not break a rule by sailing a course higher than the windward boat’s
course.

Summary of the Facts
As the two 14-foot dinghies manoeuvred before the starting signal, they crossed the starting line. While bearing away to return to the pre-start side, L, initially the windward boat, assumed a leeward position by sailing under W’s stern. Immediately after position 4, L luffed to close-hauled and
sailed straight for the port end of the line. W meanwhile, with sheets eased, sailed along the line more slowly. At position 5, there was contact, W’s boom touching L’s windward shroud. L protested W under rule 11; W counter-protested under rules 12 and 15.

The protest committee found that L had right of way under rule 11 from the time she assumed a steady course until contact. W had room to keep clear, although she would have had to cross the starting line prematurely to do so. Therefore, it dismissed W’s protest and upheld the protest by L. W appealed, this time citing rule 16.1.

Decision
W’s appeal is dismissed. Between positions 2 and 3 L became overlapped to leeward of W, acquiring right of way under rule 11 but limited by rule 15’s requirement to initially give room to W to keep clear. L met that requirement because L gave W room to keep clear. Just after position 4, when L luffed to a close-hauled course, she was required by rule 16.1 to give W room to keep clear, and she did so. L had been clear astern of W and was within two of her hull lengths of W when she became overlapped to leeward of W. Therefore, she was required by rule 17 to sail no higher
than her proper course. However, she had no proper course before the starting signal (see the definition Proper Course) and the starting signal was not made until after the incident. Therefore, L’s luff did not break rule 17 and she was in fact entitled to luff higher than she did, even as high as head to wind, as long as while so doing she complied with rule 16.1.

After L became overlapped to leeward of W, W was required by rule 11 to keep clear of L. She did not do so and accordingly her disqualification under rule 11 is upheld. In addition, W broke rule 14 because she could have avoided the contact with L.

L also broke rule 14 because it would have been easy for her to bear off slightly and avoid the contact. However, she is not penalized because there
was no damage or injury.

Perhaps the hail "i'm close hauled" isn't the right thing to say...but suppose the boat being overtaken from leeward is mostly parked with very little flow over the rudders and very little maneuverability. If that boat is hard over on the rudders and still can't avoid? It doesn't seem like there is a very clear distinction of what's right and what's wrong in the current rule book.

This used to be very clear in the rules and we couldn't find it.

I guess the hail should then be "I'm already head to wind!" Usually I think this is hailed as "I got nothing!" which is what I would say.
Another aspect of this is if the windward boat says they are head to wind then they better not be able to get moving really quickly as they would be in irons.

So I guess it was the Jakester. I'd say honest mistake, but watch that Trey/Bailey team, especially that Bailey character. Ya know he's the new Tad, right?
If you're parked on the non course side of the line,pre start, w/ no flow over your rudders, traveler centered and main sheeted ,then you've got nothing. If you've got sheet and/or traveler out, as most do when parking on the line , then you still have options and can go higher.

The match racing umpire calls shed some light on this situation, especially UMP5:

CALL UMP 5
Rule 11 On the Same Tack, Overlapped
Rule 16.1 Changing Course
Rule C2.4 While Tacking or Gybing

Question 1
Yellow, a leeward boat, luffs head to wind, and Blue luffs in response, so that both reach positions side by side, head to wind. Blue continues to change course and passes head to wind. In so doing she makes contact with Yellow. There is a
Y-flag. What should the call be?

Answer 1
If, when Yellow begins her luff, Blue immediately responds and continues to do what she is able to do to keep clear throughout the incident but there is contact anyway, then Yellow is not giving Blue room to keep clear and she breaks rule 16.1. Penalize Yellow.

If Blue could have kept clear, but either responded too slowly, not enough, or over rotated, then Blue has broken rule 11 or 13.1. Penalize Blue.

(emphasis is mine)

Yeah, it was me and it was an amicable event and I appreciate Patrick bringing it back up here because it's not a situation I'm real strong on. A couple of things:

I was parked with my sails eased. I may have had some slight forward motion but it wasn't much. Leeward boat approached and zoomed upward, I came over on my helm with everything I had but it wasn't enough - Patrick bore away slightly and I don't think there was any contact (but it was close).

I still haven't heard a clear explanation of the rights and wrongs here.

Todd's reply implicates that I should have anticipated Patrick's move and started to sheet in - but anticipating a potential action of another boat is something that I don't believe the rules or a protest committee will expect you to do. (However, anticipating that you are actively putting yourself in jeopardy of a rule infraction is...for instance, barging and finding yourself too late to abort without hitting something).

So is the consensus that the windward boat should sheet in, accelerate, and sail up to head to wind? If so, how fast is fast enough when sheeting in?

I hadn't chimed in yet because I thought mbounds had already given a correct and complete application of the rules (referring to an ISAF case as well). Citing the match racing call book can be problematic in the context of fleet racing, but I didn't see any conflict in this instance. Would a step-by-step analysis help out?

A boat is not generally required to anticipate the actions of another boat, just to react to what she is doing as she does it. That reaction has to be "prompt", and "seamanlike". Those terms, unfortunately, are a little vague, so I can't give you a definitive answer. The advice one of the senior judges in my area gave me was to substitute the phrase "without delay" for "prompt". That is, "prompt" does not mean "immediate", but it does mean no stalling. The term "seamanlike" is harder to interpret. At the SAYRA Judges Committee meeting last year, we had an hour-long discussion of what skill level "seamanlike" construed. We didn't reach a consensus. Some judges felt "seamanlike" meant expert, some average. My own opinion is that it means competent. That is, you are expected to handle your boat competently. If the boat can reasonably do something, you should be able to make her do it.

That said, when an overtaking boat becomes overlapped to leeward (gaining right-of-way), the windward boat is expected to act to keep clear (if necessary) competently and without delay. If the leeward boat heads up (changes course), then the windward boat must again act competently and without delay. If that entails sheeting in to build speed and gain steerage, then W must do so smartly.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Jake, I know you well enough to know you wouldn't do that intentionally. You've always played by the rules where I've seen. That being said.
If your sails aren't sheeted in your not head to wind. The call of whether to sheet in or not is not up to you-YOU HAVE TO GO HEAD TO WIND IF HE WANTS TO TAKE YOU THERE. You can't go head to wind with your sheet eased.

Matt,
I think it'd be pretty hard to get the kind of stern swing on a cat that would cause the penalty you posted. In light air ,I could see it happening.

OK...I have no issue with the fact that he can take me above close hauled prior to the start but I still question the timing related to the speed at which this event can take place and my lack of maneuverability. I don't know if he's just going to zoom through my lee and head for the line or if he's going to change direction to start to take me up - so I shouldn't be required to sheet in prior to his overlap in anticipation of a potential maneuver on his part. Only after the overlap is established and he starts to take me up do I have to react. If I'm parked and not moving this could take a little time and I actually need to accelerate slightly on my present heading in order to start my turn.

From his perspective, it's pretty easy for him to take my bow off - from mine, it's very difficult for me to avoid him with any kind significant speed difference between us after overlap is established with close proximity.

So, clearly the hail "I'm close hauled" was incorrect in this situation. However, this boils down to leeward providing time and opportunity and me needing to show an adequate reaction once A) overlap is established and B) leeward starts to take me up...correct?

Yes.

When you are "parked" on the line you are unable to react in a prompt and seamanlike manner. You have to be aware that another boat may establish rights over you and be you must be prepared to respond.