It was certainly amicable. I think I actually fouled him because I think I hit his shroud with my tiller extension (or did he foul me? who knows, but don't tell his crew about it ). I think I replied to him that we should discuss later. I appreciated the chance to talk to Jake about it at dinner with a few beers. Hell, I was just happy that we beat him a few times over the three days!!!

I guess what you could gain in this scenario is forcing them over early, forcing them to tack, or putting them in irons right before the start. Trick would be to not go into irons yourself when attempting it. Imagine that, and the reputation you would gain if you perfected that technique!!!

great discussion.

Rules discussion aside, doing this is a very low percentage maneuver - meaning that it doesn't work more often than it does.

You're trying to fight through an area of really bad air, usually with not a whole lot of speed, and trying to force someone else to do something they really don't want to do - which means you aren't paying attention to driving the boat.

More often than not, you send them into irons (or worse, they inadvertently tack), you stall out and there's a huge pile-up of boats behind caused . . . by you. It's a way to become unpopular very fast.

This is especially bad in uni-rig boats that get into irons easily. There will be a nice orderly line of boats at very slow speed, more or less luffing before the start, everybody minding their business, when an inexperienced person will charge in, yelling, "UP! UP! UP" and because nobody can maneuver quickly, everybody ends up in irons. For a long time.

We had a kettle of tar and a bag of feathers ready for Peter Cogan when he did this at the 1996 Hobie 17 Continentals.

Yeah, I still remember it after 15 years.

Great thread. Agree with all of the posts here from Matt and Eric.

One quick thing about Rule 17 that is interesting (and don't think it doesn't apply in OD or formula racing):

Rule 17 says: SHE shall not sail above HER proper course. This means the leeward boat is not restricted by the windward boat's proper course. In an extreme example, this means that an A Cat can head up a Hobie 16 all the way up to the A Cat's proper course (NOT the H16's). I mention this because this is commonly misunderstood, and Jake's response on the water is a typical reaction by windward boats that don't appreciate this nuance (not saying that was the case here, just making a point).

Two one-design boats can absolutely have different proper courses (think wide crew weight deltas and resultant pointing abilities here).

BTW, Matt, how did that work out for Peter?

Mike

This was informafive - and Patrick, I think I owe you a brew next time if nothing else than for hailing something silly.

Peter never sailed a Hobie 17 again.

++1

exactly, by being completely parked you are putting yourself in a very vulnerable position, you should always have some sort of steerage (just pull your main in for a second and move. Get crew to keep an eye on boats looking like they are going to get the leeward hook on you during the start.

If your parked at the line with a hole bellow you, you have become the sheep, the wolves will have at you. You want to be the wolf at the start, not a sheep.

While I have your attention, whoever it is out there who thinks you can back up to the line when called over early, you have NO rights when doing so, please don't do this unless you are not in anyone's way (which, if you were over early, is highly unlikely).

Disagree here. No rule says I can't park my boat. It also makes sense at times - particularly 20 yards away from a 30 boat-wide line, only 5 boats in my start, over a minute to the start, and 16 knots of breeze....and there is a seaman like manner with which to maneuver the boat from this position that the leeward boat needs to respect. Additionally, I'm not required to anticipate whether or not he may try to head me up or simply sail through my lee toward the line - so I don't have to begin my prompt maneuver until after overlap is established and his intentions are clear.

[quote=maritimesailorWhile I have your attention, whoever it is out there who thinks you can back up to the line when called over early, you have NO rights when doing so, please don't do this unless you are not in anyone's way (which, if you were over early, is highly unlikely). [/quote]

I 100% agree with you on this. HOWEVER.....There was a rules seminar done by the judge at last years F18 North Americans. He was of the opinion that you could back up with rights (His rational was that if you went head to wind without tacking, then you were still on startboard tack, and that boats behind you are technically overtaking you......so, you had rights). If there are more judges out there with that opinion, then it could get intersting in the room!

Given your description of the events (width, time to start, position, etc), Jake, I'm not sure what the need for heading you further up would be, except to disrupt your starting maneuver...

Along the lines of starting, although I don't see as many starts as others it would seem that luffing at the line is the mode de rigur. I know cats accelerate quickly, but if you're parked and have few (if any) rights what advantage is there?

I was always scared of being pushed over early. Perhaps this may be better in some cases than starting second row?

Back to Jakes conundrum... is there any obligation of the leeward boat stating their intention (such as "UP") until they actually acquire rights? With the closing speed Jake is suggesting, the leeward boat could have called earlier (but could have opened the door to Jake driving down to block)....

just thinking out loud here..

you certainly don't owe me anything. I still owe you a few kegs for the advice you have given me over the years!

Randy used it as a standard starting tactic in the Olympics. Then it was banned. Don't know where in the new rules or if it's in there but the old rules had a specific for it. Matt, Isotope, Bru, ??? You guys know this stuff way better than me.

Jake , If you're going to park your boat and don't want to anticipate a competitors actions then you better be head to wind or your out of luck. The whole point of the maneuver is to get you stalled. The whole point of sailboat racing is to predict what's going to happen and use it to you advantage.
You're starting to sound a little whiny. Enough, maybe, to test your retention of what you've learned here,If we ever get lined up next to each other again.

Saw that coming, an easy one:

RRS 21.3: A boat moving astern by backing a sail shall keep clear of one that is not.

Interesting terminology. So, if you're in a ripping foul current, you could back down and have rights, as long as you're not back(wind)ing a sail???

As for the side discussion about "to park or not to park" the real question isn't about being REQUIRED to anticipate (by the rules, you do NOT have to anticipate, just react); the real question is, why would you wait until the boat is under you to react? To correctly use "parking" as a tactic, you need to vigorously defend, which requires anticipation, and pre-emptive action to block your hole.

Mike

Is windage on the boat (causing it to move backwards), the same as "backing a sail"??

I'm not trying to be whiny (thought I do trend to that sometimes!)....but there is a clear distinction on the rule requirements that some are confusing this with what they believe you "should" do tactically (and they're jumping to some conclusions about the situation).

This is simple (and now I understand it): As per the rules, I am not required to take any action until overlap is established and the leeward boat's intentions are clear (both items). His intentions can be established by the direction of his boat and/or hailing (or both). He has to give me time and opportunity after these two conditions have been presented for me to avoid him. This is the only way to look at right and wrong. Any ensuing disagreement/infraction about the situation comes down to: did I react fast enough and did he give me enough time to react after overlap was established.

Did it make sense for me to sit in a vulnerable position with a competitor behind me? It did to me then. At the time, that leeward boat wasn't the competitor I was going after and I was trying to stay within striking distance of the guy I wanted (waiting for him to establish his starting intention) while having the spot on the line I wanted within reach if I couldn't go after my target. Again, remember that there are only 5 boats on a line designed for 30 with plenty of wind and time to kill...it's not like I couldn't wiggle out of just about anything someone threw at me... I could have still made two 360's to get clear and hit the line with speed if I needed to.

Did it make sense for the leeward boat to do head me up? - Even though I didn't see it coming, I would say yeah, probably. I was the guy they were going after and if he could get me shaken up on the start early, he might have an advantage...so while I wasn't expecting it, I certainly don't fault him for it. He was well within the rules.

No, Karl, and that is something that bugs me. At a recent event with big waves, coming to the line, I had a team that had already been stalled by a leeward boat begin sliding down the back of a wave; their sails were still on the starboard side of the boat, but they were moving backward at a knot or two, pumping rudders and yelling, and the wave had forced them past head-to-weather. We initially were set up to roll them close; we had speed and there was room. As soon as I saw them stall, I called for an aggressive duck, blew the jib and flattened out so the skipper had max visibility. As they fell down the back of the wave, our room to duck disappeared and we clipped their port stern with our starboard bow. I think if it had gone to the room, the decision would hinge on the position of the sail; the fact they were backing up wasn't the determining factor. Our defense would have been that we were not given room or opportunity to avoid; if we'd not tried to duck, we'd have had more substantial contact with their starboard hull as they were being forced onto a port tack. Our contact was certainly reduced by our ducking, but it spun them fully onto port tack and it left them feeling raped; even though we'd not been the team that forced them into irons, there were serious hard feelings on the beach because there had been contact.

The moral of the story; the rule references sail position. You can back up on the line without backing your sail. Overtaking boats had better watch out; RRS 21.3 will not save you.

To me ,that just reinforces the need for more blackflag starts. Keeps people from being over the line and backing down into a good position.

I agree with the judge who gave the seminar. Mike has it right with:

A boat (let's say on starboard tack, but that's really not crucial) can turn all the way head-to-wind and still be on starboard tack. If she stalls and drifts backwards, she is still on starboard tack, can still be leeward of another boat, and can still be clear ahead of other boats. In short, she retains her rights as long as she is not backing a sail.

As soon as she backs a sail, however, rule 21.3 kicks in and according to the preamble to Section D (which states "when rule 21 or 22 applies between two boats, Section A rules do not"), rules 10, 11, 12, and 13 switch off.

For example, look at the "dial-up" often seen at the start in match racing. Boat A comes to the line downwind on port tack while B approaches on starboard. If A cannot cross B, she heads up. B heads up to keep A pinned and this continues until both boats have turned fully head-to-wind. At this point, A is sill on port tack and B is still on starboard and has right-of-way. Typically, A pases head-to-wind and bears all the way down to a close hauled course. Now A is also on starboard tack and as leeward boat has gained right-of-way. Sailing away at this point isn't usually a good tactical move, so A typically heads back up to head-to-wind.

Ok, now the two boats are side-by-side, both head-to-wind, and they do sometimes start drifting backwards. As neither is backing a sail, rule 21.3 doesn't apply. Rule 11 does instead. At one America's Cup start, the boats were drifting backwards at 6 knots - faster than the umpire boat could move in reverse. The umpire boat had to turn around to get out of the way (which is irrelevant to the rules, but a nice story).

Now, that's an example from match racing, and although match racing rules are often different than fleet racing rules, in this case they are the same.

Regards,
Eric
US Sailing Certified Judge.

No. There is no obligation to hail (it's usually a good idea, but no rule requires it). It is the act of changing course that matters. In fact, a leeward boat can yell "head up" all she wants but if she does not change course herself, windward is under no obligation to maneuver.

Regards,
Eric

No, backing a sail is not the same as drifting backwards. The critical difference is whether or not you are putting backwards wind pressure on your sail(s).

Regards,
Eric

Thanks, in the scenario I was thinking about the boat was actively sailing backwards, not simply drifting backwards, but it is good to have clarity on "backing sails", although I would be surprised to know their are no cases listed in a judge book somewhere.

I always assumed in match racing the backing up was precarious for both, since they were both doing it. I think it is a bit naive to define it as using backing of sails to sail backwards, as clearly in many cases it is the rigging / windage that is pushing them back.

Ah well, thems the rules I guess :-)