Ok, I reread this, and it you are technically correct - but because of rule 21.1, not 21.3. The boat is returning to the pre-start side of the line after the starting signal and it doesn't matter whether she's moving forward or backing up.

Regards,
Eric

Is a protest in this situation even winable on either side? How do you prove the windward boat didn't react enough to keep clear once overlap was established and how do you prove leeward didn't give room and opportunity if there is contact, and let's assume the contact was at the bows and there are no witnesses.

You're all making great points about windage, but please get on a signal boat and watch an Opti start in 4 knots of wind, with a foul ripping current. It's amazing how fast the current will push you backwards. And, as JW mentioned, waves can do the same thing.

As for Ding's question, as in any protest, what comes out of the room depends on so many things. Such as, strength of testimony from the parties, experience of the judges, etc.

On monohulls, it might be easier to win a protest as a leeward boat, but our cats are so fast that you'll likely be past the windward boat, or in contact, well before the windward guy can sheet in and get moving, even if he acts immediately. Depends on conditions, too, but largely, this is a losing maneuver for a leeward boat for so many reasons (as Matt touched on earlier).

Mike

An interesting situation. Wouldn't blowing the jib make it harder to duck? Also, if the other boat had passed head-to-wind, wouldn't your bow have clipped her on her starboard stern - not port?

As presented, I can see it going one of two ways in the room:

1. Because A had passed head-to-wind, rule 13 (while tacking) applied and she was required to keep clear of B (on starboard tack). Because she did not, she would be penalized. Because it was not reasonably possible for B to avoid contact, B did not break rule 14.
2. If A had not passed head-to-wind, it could still be argued that even though her bow was pointed into the wind, A in fact changed course (from moving upwind to moving downwind). In this case, rule 16.1 would apply and A would be obligated to give B room to keep clear. Since B was unable to keep clear, A would be penalized. B would be exonerated under rule 64.1(c).

You are right that either way, A was not backing her sail so rule 21.3 is not relevant.

Regards,
Eric

The black flag would be overkill. The "I" flag or "Z" flag will serve just as well.

Regards,
Eric

You don't need a PRO or any flags for this. You need a good class culture. As Matt would say, take 'em behind the woodshed...

Mike

Mike is correct in pointing out that the outcome will depend heavily on how the testimony is given and the makeup of the protest committee.

Ultimately, the PC will determine the facts of the incident and those facts will drive the decision. When presenting the case, it behooves one to be calm, direct, and give hard physical data. How far apart were the boats? How fast were the boats going? How many seconds were they overlapped? How many degrees over what time did one change course? Give solid estimates and be prepared to back them up. Remember that the jury can calculate speeds and distances to validate their consistency.

Inexperienced protest committies tend to side with the boat that has right-of-way. International juries know the game so well that they cut to the decision almost instinctively. In between, different people will weight testimony in different ways. I know one very experienced judge who gives more credence to the person who has a better view of the incident. If one person tells a consistent story and another's has contradictions, I tend to believe the first. Sometimes, a witness just rubs the jury the wrong way and they don't believe him at all.

So, my advice is to be polite and unemotional. Give the protest committee good solid facts that hold up under scrutiny and lead the jury to see the incident as you do.

Oh, and it's better to avoid contact. That way, even if the PC rejects your facts, they won't have something to penalize you for.

I hope that helps,
Eric

You don't even need the woodshed really. If somebody tries to make themselves a hole at the start by backing down over the line, just pinch them up so hard that their hole is too small to use. They wind up either in irons at the start, or so slow that they get rolled by all the other boats. Either way, they'll learn.

It always does Eric. Thanks.

If leeward boat....

"I have an overlap and I am luffing".
1
You need to keep clear
2
You are not reacting to my luffing; you need to change course and/or sheet in so you can avoid me
3
You are not keeping clear; Protest

In a hot fleet; 1-3 is a second or so; slightly longer in a "beer-can" race.....

If you are the windward boat...

1, I have seen you
2, you appear to be luffing
3, I am manovering in a seaman loke way to avoid
4, you are not giving me enough time

1-3 is a similar timescale as above

I blew the jib to allow for the turn down without increasing speed. The other boat appeared to be past head-to-weather, but only just, as her sails hadn't backwinded - her speed down the wave face was pure gravity, not wind-driven. We so very nearly made the duck - yes, our starboard bow hit the inside aft corner of their port hull, leaving a dime-sized chip in the gelcoat. Our bow was unscratched, so it might have been the bridle bolt that did the damage. This was a Hobie 16 event last month. It happened in a matter of about two or three seconds, start to finish with about five seconds to go in the starting sequence (no proper course) about one boat-length below the line and maybe two boat-lengths down the line from the RC boat. At the time we hit, I was sure we were taking a rudder off. It sucked. For everyone.

While I agree with your rule analysis, these are the facts as I saw them; the other team felt we had fouled them badly. There was no hail of protest, and it was expressed on the beach later that they didn't feel a hail should have been necessary. They felt that the fact they were backing up didn't matter, and my question about where we would have hit them if we hadn't ducked went unanswered; they were quite busy avoiding the leeward boat that had poked them up to begin with, and did not see us until the skipper looked back as the wave lifted their bows and they began their slide. At that point, we'd already begun to duck, so he never saw our original course. Further, if the guy ever read the forum, he might have a different recollection of the event altogether; you only have my side.

is over-sheeting the jib (pulling the clew across) considered backwinding? If I'm on stb tack, and pull the jib clew further to stb in an attempt to push the bows out of irons, that's the same as backwinding?

You bring up a couple of interesting points.

Ok, first the less important one. If there is contact that results in damage or injury that is obvious to the boats involved, then the requirement to hail and fly a flag do not apply to a boat intending to protest. It sounds like the damage was small and not obvious in this instance, but one can still file a valid protest when a boat or person gets hurt.

Now for the more important point. As you said, the other skipper might tell a very different story. It's not uncommon for the parties in a protest hearing to honestly give completely irreconcilable accounts. Part of the judge training is to understand that neither person is necessarily misrepresenting the facts - the've just seen them differently. At a judge's workshop once, the speaker told of a protest where the jury wrote up the facts as "two boats, sailing in different regattas, on different bodies of water, both on starboard tack, and both to leeward, made contact". Really, the hardest part of hearing a protest is figuring out what actually happened. Applying the rules is easy in comparison.

That brings us to part of the purpose of a protest hearing. It's an opportunity for both sides to get together and explain their view to an impartial listener. They also get to see the other party's perspective. People often walk away from the hearing with a broader view of the incident and a better understanding of the game. Don't get me wrong - a lot of people leave unhappy as well, but at least they've had a chance to be heard. A hearing can go a long way to reducing rancor on the beach (or in the bar). Resulting anger tends to get displaced onto the committee members, who eventually develop thick skins. Just last Saturday, after I lead a starting rules and tactics seminar at a local club, one of the attendees cornered me and complained that he was still upset with me for disqualifing him in a hearing that was so long ago that I don't even remember it anymore.

Regards,
Eric

If you cross-sheet the jib, then yes - I'd have to say you're backing it. If that causes your boat to move astern, then you're subject to rule 21.3 and must stay clear of boats that are not.

Regards,
Eric

Eric, I love drawing you, Mike and Matt into these sorts of discussions; it's like a mini-seminar. Thanks for taking the time.

OK, this is still not clear for me. I interpreted what Jay was describing as not backwinding, but adding additional pressure to bring the bows down while maintaining the same tack. The jib is never back winded. Cross sheeting is confusing. I envisioned Jay grabbing the clew on a self tacker. ??

Agreed!

Thank you from the back of the fleet..........for now!

You're quite welcome, this stuff is fun. It's always a learning experience (for all parties involved), otherwise it would get boring quickly.

There are a million ways to learn this stuff, and time on the water is equally as important as anything written in a book or spoken in a seminar. But, I have found that the US SAILING seminars (RC and Judge) are outstanding, as well as the North U courses on rules and tactics. Maybe seminars suit my particular learning style, but I really like the interactions of students and instructors, and you get to hear some unique "real-life" situations that you might not have encountered yet yourself.

Probably a "next-level" exercise would be to get involved with umpiring. Those guys (and girls) literally follow around boats on the water and constantly call out who has ROW, and what rules are in effect, REAL-TIME, as it unfolds.

As for the question about what constitutes backing a sail, I would like to see a clear definition. Since there is no definition in the RRS, we are taught as judges to look to dictionaries for common meanings of words in question...

From Dictionary.com:
backwind
–verb (used with object), -wind•ed, -wind•ing. Nautical .
1. to divert wind against the lee side of (a sail) from another sail.
2. to set (a sail) so that the wind is on what would ordinarily be the lee side, as for turning the bow of a boat away from the wind.
3. to blanket (another sailing vessel) by spilling wind from the sails of one vessel onto the lee side of the sails of the other.

I'm having trouble visualizing #1. It almost sounds like if you pull the jib clew to the mast you would be backing wind into the main. I don't think that's quite right, because what you're really doing (or trying to do) is use the pressure from the windward side of the jib to get the bow down.

So, following #2, if you are parked on starboard (with the wind coming from the starboard side of the boat), and pull the jib over to the starboard side so you can get the bow down (with the wind filling the starboard side of the jib), I would say that is NOT backing the sail.

Also following #2, if you are parked on starboard (with the wind coming from the starboard side of the boat), and push the jib over to the port side so you can back up or push the boat over to port tack (with the wind filling the port side of the jib), I would say that IS backing the sail.

As for JW's scenario, I would need to get more info (best in a hearing). But, the maneuver of the original leeward boat sounds like a candidate for Matt's bucket-O-tar...

Hope this helps.

Mike

been there, done that, am a part time Opti coach and well aware of what can happen and how much fun it can be, I have some great video of leeward mark rounds in south east champs a few years back when the wind died with 80 boats rounding....

Thanks for the clarity, always happy to learn.