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Re: rule question- head to wind [Re: brucat] #227486
01/25/11 03:18 PM
01/25/11 03:18 PM
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Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
You're quite welcome, this stuff is fun. It's always a learning experience (for all parties involved), otherwise it would get boring quickly.

There are a million ways to learn this stuff, and time on the water is equally as important as anything written in a book or spoken in a seminar. But, I have found that the US SAILING seminars (RC and Judge) are outstanding, as well as the North U courses on rules and tactics. Maybe seminars suit my particular learning style, but I really like the interactions of students and instructors, and you get to hear some unique "real-life" situations that you might not have encountered yet yourself.

Probably a "next-level" exercise would be to get involved with umpiring. Those guys (and girls) literally follow around boats on the water and constantly call out who has ROW, and what rules are in effect, REAL-TIME, as it unfolds.

As for the question about what constitutes backing a sail, I would like to see a clear definition. Since there is no definition in the RRS, we are taught as judges to look to dictionaries for common meanings of words in question...

From Dictionary.com:
backwind
–verb (used with object), -wind•ed, -wind•ing. Nautical .
1. to divert wind against the lee side of (a sail) from another sail.
2. to set (a sail) so that the wind is on what would ordinarily be the lee side, as for turning the bow of a boat away from the wind.
3. to blanket (another sailing vessel) by spilling wind from the sails of one vessel onto the lee side of the sails of the other.

I'm having trouble visualizing #1. It almost sounds like if you pull the jib clew to the mast you would be backing wind into the main. I don't think that's quite right, because what you're really doing (or trying to do) is use the pressure from the windward side of the jib to get the bow down.

So, following #2, if you are parked on starboard (with the wind coming from the starboard side of the boat), and pull the jib over to the starboard side so you can get the bow down (with the wind filling the starboard side of the jib), I would say that is NOT backing the sail.

Also following #2, if you are parked on starboard (with the wind coming from the starboard side of the boat), and push the jib over to the port side so you can back up or push the boat over to port tack (with the wind filling the port side of the jib), I would say that IS backing the sail.

As for JW's scenario, I would need to get more info (best in a hearing). But, the maneuver of the original leeward boat sounds like a candidate for Matt's bucket-O-tar...

Hope this helps.

Mike


Pushing the main out to leeward to make the boat backup would also be a clear example of backing a sail...but I'm with you - the confusing part of this is that it is possible to make a catamaran move rearward without fully backing a sail. Is luffing backing?

I think the intent of the rule is pretty clear - but that the wording may not have taken all types of sailboats into consideration.


Jake Kohl
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Re: rule question- head to wind [Re: Jake] #227493
01/25/11 04:26 PM
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I was answering the question someone asked about the jib, but yes, the mainsail is the same concept.

Luffing is not backing. The rule is specific about backing the sail. There are some clarifications on the ISAF site, umpire calls and such, that might help. I didn't post the links, because some of them appear to be out-dated, but I think the concepts are valid.

Seems to me, if you're moving in reverse, as long as you're not backing the sail, you are ROW. Not sure how useful this is in practice, of course.

EDIT: What if you pull the main to windward? I suppose you could move backwards that way (if you push it out/forward far enough, such as in light air)? I'm waiting to hear back from a local judge who might be able to better help answer this.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 01/25/11 04:30 PM.
Re: rule question- head to wind [Re: brucat] #227494
01/25/11 04:37 PM
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For the purpose of muddying the waters as we are trying to clear them. What difference (if any) would there be between a boat moving backwards due to luffing (head to wind), and a boat moving backwards due to current. Neither boat is taking active steps to move the boat backwards.


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Re: rule question- head to wind [Re: ksurfer2] #227495
01/25/11 04:39 PM
01/25/11 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ksurfer2
For the purpose of muddying the waters as we are trying to clear them. What difference (if any) would there be between a boat moving backwards due to luffing (head to wind), and a boat moving backwards due to current. Neither boat is taking active steps to move the boat backwards.


If he's "moving backwards" because of current, are they really moving backwards if they are stationary (or moving forward slightly) in relation to the water?


Jake Kohl
Re: rule question- head to wind [Re: ksurfer2] #227498
01/25/11 04:52 PM
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IMO if you are touching the sail or using any other way to control the sail other then the proper controls (sheets, etc) I think you can call it backwinding.
There is no rule that says you cant back-up "naturally", especially during pre-start this is done all the time (getting out of a position of someone luffing you for instance).

Re: rule question- head to wind [Re: Tony_F18] #227499
01/25/11 05:17 PM
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Ksurfer and Jake, good points.

Technically, they are moving backwards due to the current, although it may not be apparent to another boat affected by the same current. Same could be said for luffing (being moved backwards by the effect of the wind and waves on the rig and hulls). That may be why the rule is written to only look at backing a sail.

Tony: "IMO if you are touching the sail or using any other way to control the sail other then the proper controls (sheets, etc) I dont think you can call it backwinding."

Have you ever seen anyone stand on their bow, grab the jib, and push it against the wind to back away from a beach? Have you seen a uni-rig (or anyone else) get out of irons by pushing out the boom? You can absolutely backwind a sail without using a sheet.

Mike

Re: rule question- head to wind [Re: brucat] #227501
01/25/11 05:26 PM
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I back out of or into a beach without touching the sails...rudders up, boards mostly up, sit forward of the main beam and the boat will back beautifully. I'm not backwinding a sail (I don't think...they're luffing). I understand the intent (and probably would never try this), but it sounds like I can still do this on a crowded start line and maintain rights as long as I don't physically move the sail over.


Jake Kohl
Re: rule question- head to wind [Re: brucat] #227502
01/25/11 05:31 PM
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brucat: sorry, didnt write that down properly (its late here smile ).
What I meant to say was that if you are backwinding a sail by holding it or pushing the jib clew or mainsail boom and using that to move backwards you are in violation of 21.3.

I remember a protest about this a few years ago where someone was legally backing up on the startline and won.

Re: rule question- head to wind [Re: Tony_F18] #227505
01/25/11 05:57 PM
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Thanks for the clarification.

As I read it, I think the difference is whether you're pushing/pulling to leeward or to windward. I could be wrong, so I'm asking for another opinion from a very senior guy. I'll let you know what he has to say.

Mike

Re: rule question- head to wind [Re: Jake] #227506
01/25/11 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Jake
I back out of or into a beach without touching the sails...rudders up, boards mostly up, sit forward of the main beam and the boat will back beautifully. I'm not backwinding a sail (I don't think...they're luffing). I understand the intent (and probably would never try this), but it sounds like I can still do this on a crowded start line and maintain rights as long as I don't physically move the sail over.


Correct. Again, not sure of the utility of this, but that is allowed in the rules.

However, if you are still moving backwards (motion started by luffing), then backwind a sail, as soon as you backwind the sail you lose ROW, according to the "clarification" document that I found on ISAF today.

Mike

Re: rule question- head to wind [Re: Tony_F18] #227507
01/25/11 06:14 PM
01/25/11 06:14 PM
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I don't have a case reference or dictionary definition to back this up, but in my opinion:
  1. Draw an imaginary line down the centerline of your boat.
  2. Draw another imaginary line (or curve) representing the position of the sail.
  3. Draw an imaginary arrow representing the direction of the wind.
Now, if the sail is in line with the wind, you are not backing it.

If the sail is not in line with the wind then the wind is exerting pressure against it. If that pressure is on the side of the sail facing aft (pushing the boat forward) then you are not backing it. If the pressure is on the fore side of the sail (pushing the boat backwards), then you ARE backing the sail.

It doesn't matter which side of the boat the sail is on or how you hold it out - by hand, with a sheet, or a pole. You're still backing it.

One can back a jib to help get through a tack, or to help turn the bow down to get out of irons. As long as it does not make you move astern, rule 21.3 does not apply. If you back a sail and back up, you must keep clear of boats that are not.

Regards,
Eric

Last edited by Isotope42; 01/25/11 06:16 PM.
Re: rule question- head to wind [Re: Isotope235] #227511
01/25/11 06:44 PM
01/25/11 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
If the pressure is on the fore side of the sail (pushing the boat backwards), then you ARE backing the sail.

It doesn't matter which side of the boat the sail is on or how you hold it out - by hand, with a sheet, or a pole. You're still backing it.

Regards,
Eric

That makes complete sense, the battens are holding the luff of the sail into the wind. Very interesting discussion this, issue comes up in almost every race I sail.
Darryn
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Re: rule question- head to wind [Re: Darryn] #227512
01/25/11 06:49 PM
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I like it Eric. Not sure why the rule book would be so vague with this (they must assume we know what they mean by backing a sail)...

Mike

Re: rule question- head to wind [Re: brucat] #227515
01/25/11 07:24 PM
01/25/11 07:24 PM
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Here is a site that might help with a drawing:

http://www.offshoresailing.com/sailing-tips/dropping-the-mooring.aspx

Re: rule question- head to wind [Re: Mike Fahle] #227584
01/26/11 12:21 PM
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Mike, that drawing is quite helpful. If a boat is truly head-to wind, there wouldn't be a "normally leeward" side, yet one would clearly be backwinding a sail.

OK, the plot thickens...

I heard back from the judge. He is very senior (I won't mention his name because I didn't ask for permission to quote him).

He said that in his opionion, using a sail in anything other than its natural position to move a boat backwards is backing the sail, but if you can get the bow down without going backwards, that would not be backing a sail.

However, although he is very senior, the question stumped him enough to ask other very senior judges for an opinion before responding to me. He told me that the best course of action would be to contact US SAILING for a clarification.

He also said that the rule came about as an outcome of a match racing call that he personally made as an umpire, involving a current, high-profile sailor (think Volvo and AC here). What a small world...

Mike

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