Hello Cat Sailors,
Looking for your input;

Task; Develope Hi wind ( 15-25 mph) spinnaker system

boat; Inter 17 euro and Hobie FX-1

Goal; contolled, 1 person, spinnaker sail and deployment system in 15-25 mph

Harper and I have sailed the Uni for almost 2 years in Trade Winds, year round, down here in St. Croix. We have decided to take the next step to be spin boats.

The whole aspect is , 1 person and controlable in this wind range.

Roller furling appears to have an edge, unless someone out there has a good configuration.

A smaller chute, with sail area low,..may be the ticket.

Ideas,...comments,...brain storms?.......

..we believe it can be done..

regards,

Bruce
I-17 Euro
St. Croix
US Virgin Islands [color:"white"] [/color]

I'm not too sure what your question is, but I sail an Inter 17R with spinaker.

my 17 page

I have a nice setup that uses 'jib' cleats on the front beam to hold my spinnaker. This setup allows me to easily pull in the spinnaker one-handed.

When it's 13+ knots, it pays to trapeze and go for speed. This setup makes it possible for me to go out on the trapeze under spinnaker. You wouldn't believe the feeling you will get, the boat sits down and starts to 'skim' the water, nerver ever wanting to dig in. My foot straps help a lot to give me some balance, I use my toes to keep me on the back. My 'jesus lines' also keeps me glued to the back. Even while digging in, I stay at the back, and wait for the boat to pull out, and go forward again.

i'd like to say how easy the 17R is in handling extreme weather. We sail on the St-Lawrence river, but it can still become quite an handfull in strong 15-20+ winds and small/steep waves from the wind and tides combined effect.

Remember to raise those boards, it's a 17 with the same boards than 18's and 20's....do the math

I hope this helped.

Phil Mascolo
Inter 17R #135

Catamaran Quebec web site

Bruce

I think that you have two ways forward here, roller furling, as you say, or a snuffer system.

Roller furling will be easier than the current snuffer systems since to douse the spin into a snuffer will require loosing the tiller, allbeit only for a few seconds. No problem in 15 mph, but more dificult in 25. The downside with roller furling is that I think you'll take a big hit on upwind performance.

The very best way would be a snuffer system that can be operated 1 handed, for this you need a pump up and pump down system. Complicated, but you could hide the stuff under the tramp, and it would be quick, easy and only require one hand to get the kite up and down. If your looking to develope the best I'd go this route.

15-17.5 sq m should be the right kind of size, but I wouldn't recommend any cleats on the sheets, just make sure the ratchets have plenty of wrap.

Phil,

Thanks for the reply,......since you know the scene when the wind gets too wild for your spinnaker,......it is at this point, that we sail 80% of the year..


...so, with your experiance, what would you design differently for you to keep sailing the spinnaker in steady 20 mph +/- 5 plus gusts??

Bruce

John,

...one handed pump up - pump down,.....

,,tell me about this system,.....I know nothing about it

........sounds like it might be a good choice....



Bruce

Hi Bruce

Wow great responces ,-John is correct ,{as usual } on the furler -snuffer choise ,-John,s the designer of the Stealth series of excellent cat designs .
Phils great 17 site was fun to review ,-{great sence of humor too } liked the Jesus line ,though have never heard it called that before ,-other names are chicken line or anti round the bridle wire line or safety line ,-these are an absolute necessity at those speeds in seas .
I like the type that runs from the front crossbeam to the stern with shockcord retrival line into the crossbeam .
This type of line along the entire length of the deck edge ith adjustable climbers knots to change OR slide lead locations where they are needed and the addition of a loop and ball attachment--line to harness-- /easy detachment is the best setup -
Many past Worrell and Tybee 500 racing teams use this type of set up for the high winds and seas encountered .
Can.t tell you how many times it's saved me from a severe pitchpole and another sailing related {religious experience }

For the snuffer as John noted some type of simple mechanical assist for the spin halyard for setting and snuffing . Some should experiement and try a small light high speed winch type system also .

The only other option I could think of is a more radical design development of the spin -rig set up ,and spin system basically consisting of a horizontal furling system. --much like is used for battened mainsails ,--collective {what the h}-
Its not practical yet but would involve furling the smaller flatter spin from the bottom foot . A furler set at the end of the pole set horizontally towards the foot rather than vertically up the luff . This would require a battened type designed spin with a batten on the foot to furl on . Some sailmakers have experimented with this type of sail but found it not as versital in light air ,--but as a high speed sail it may work very well .
-Furler leads are needed ,swivels on the furler and sheet line leads , gybes would have to be round the front -luff rather than between the luff and forestay s .
In experimenting with this suggest raking the mast as far back as possible and using a longer spin pole length ,-
The more luff angle the more potential verticle lift the headsail will provide .--Check out the Aussie 18 skiffs as example ,--

The foot would of course have to be shorter than the distance from the tack to blocks and the battened smaller flatter headsail would roll down but still need to be hoisted .

The advantages of a battened headsail or one with a battened foot over the current asymetric spin that have been developed extensively would have to be experimented -refined and developed to be practical .
Fun exercize to go through the possible design scenarios ,-hope its helpfull.

Carl

John,
Has anybody actually figured out the difference in windage between a roller-furled headsail and those big snuffer snouts? And has anybody factored the pros/cons of weight low (snuffer) and weight high (roller-furling)? And also the problem with snuffers stuffing into waves?

I call mine the anti-Tarzaning unit. It's one of your better units.

AaaooooooAAAAeeeeeAAAAAAAA!!!!

Bruce

On reflection I think having a pump up and a pump down system would be too complicated.

I think you could manage an ordinary halyard for the hoist, run it so that the tack line is automatiaclly pulled out at the same time though, then use a pump system for dousing.

The pump system, basically works like ratchet, handbrake on a car is a good example. I'll try and explain it:

imagine that your spinnaker retrieval line is attached to a great big shockcord, about 10m long and when the spinaker is down this is stretched to its limit, now put a block just behind the halyard cleat so that the halyard goes into the cleat automatically, put a floating block on the halyard just behind this with a trapeze handle attached to it,now attach another block about 2 ft behind the first one, and then attach a cleat (cleat 2) behind this.

When you grab the floating block and pull it sideways it will pull the sail down, when you move the block back the tail gets pulled through cleat 2 by the elastic, another pull brings in more spinnaker and so on.

Hope this makes sense, if your interested we could sort it all out for you.

Mary

Dunno exactly what the fifference is but I'm sure that its quite a lot, the snuffers may be quite big, but the area presented to the wind is not, remember upwind its on the nose, also its low down where the wind is least whereas the furled one goes way up the mast in the stronger breeze, + Unless the luff is very tight, it'll flap, then you've got the weight.

Look at the Tornado's, and how they do it, they won't be very wrong. As to stuffing into waves, Ive never had it happen, allthough I think it could happen into breaking surf

John,
I am aware that people believe-think-assume that about the windage, but I just wondered if it had ever been tested, like a wind tunnel.

Always, ALWAYS, ALWAYS keep your spin. You gain speed, and speed prevents pitchpoling. It's not the spin that mkaes your bows dig, it's the mainsail. It's far more dangerous 'digging wise' to only wear the main.

As for the snuffer system, I can't think of a better design than my Nacra setup. The same halyard raises and lowers your spin, It can't get any simpler. Tha good thing about front snuffers is that you can snuff it while going at the same spin course heading, and you can even head into wind and still drop the kite. NEVER EVER drop your front snuffer spin downwind, NEVER ! Or else you will 'run over' your sheets(word?)/lines and they will wrap around your bows, NOT nice.

And for those 'no,no tststtt cleats on a spin....', I consider them my crew. It gives me 2 more hands to work for me. Just try to sheet in a spin one handed while holding the stick...or getting back from the trapeze. I really don't see the difference between jib cleats and spin cleats while going downwind, my Prindle 16 was a pitchpoling bit*h because of the jib so...I handle the 2 in a similar way: sheet in, head up, get speed, head down, sheet out, rince, repeat...

My only problem with a spinnaker up in good winds is when the waves are short, and break into my REAR crossbeam, thus rocking my bows down...it makes some fun, albeit un comfortable, RODEO RUN !

Carl,

This is how great innovation occurs,......in the past it was on the beach after ( during) a race,....now we can develope stuff in each others living rooms,..world wide!

Tell us more about the horizontal spinnaker, ( Aussie 18) set up,....do you ( or anyone) have a link to a picture?

Again, the topic is hi speed and safe,......and the 2 parts needed ( amoungst others) are;

a) deployment and retriveal

b) sail design and size


....thanks for the info so far.......



Bruce
St. Croix

Mary,

We need you ( and Rick) to jump into this design discussion,...since we know he sails a roller furler headsail T 4.9.


...at what point does his T 4.9 with spin up reach the 'unsafe limit'?


....since he has sailed most spin deployment systems,...considering the project at hand ( Uni rig, 1 person, hi wind) ...what does he ( and you) observe?

thanks

Bruce

John,

Tell me ( us) more,...sounds like a good thing,....is there a diagram,....a picture( you know, worth a thousand words..),.......

..again,..this project is for a 1 person , Uni in big winds (...as you well know,..big winds mean big waves too..)

...thanks for the input so far..

Bruce
St. Croix

Phill

How about a little primary scourse evidence,...described what happened to the I-17R fleet in last years Performance Race Week in Michigan,......you mentioned you ran the race.

I remember Masts broken, spins blown,...a scene of general survival.....

Looking back,....when the big winds came,...and the spins were up,.....what did you experiance that took the stock I17R w spin 'over the limit'?

What would you do 'now',........sail size?.....equipment change?

..thanks for your help so far..

Bruce
St. Croix

Hi Bruce,
If it is blowing 25 I won't leave the beach.
However, I have been caught out in big blows during distance races and have managed to carry the Hooter. In order to do so safely I eased the traveler out more, did not heat up at all and sailed the rig deeper.
After that and the boat is still threatening, I furl the sail and stop holding my breath.

Good luck,
Rick

Bruce,
As an indirect look at your situation, here is an excerpt from Roy Seaman's chapter about Distance Racing in our book "Catamaran Racing for the 90's."



So, in other words, what Roy is saying is that it is hard and scary to put up a spinnaker in a lot of wind. And Rick tells me that if he were out in 25-knot winds, he would not unfurl his hooter. And what you are saying is that you want a headsail that you are actually able to deploy when it is already blowing that hard.

Have you thought about a kite? This is a good website: www.kiteship.com. They show them being used with small cats, and the kites come in all different sizes.

Simple - get an A-cat, less fuss, less time rigging, less things to break, and (in my experience) as fast.

Bruce

This link takes you to the web-page on our site that deals with snuffers.


www.geocities.com/stealthmarine2002/snuffer


I have no pictures of the pump system, as we havn't put it on a boat yet, but basically you would end up with two cleat/block assemblies that take the spare line into the beam, you would end uo with two lines on the boat. One to pull the kite up, and one to pump it down again.

As I said before, given the high wind usage I would recommend a 15 sq m spinnaker. I would not advise cleats for the sheet as I feel sure that there will be times when the bow buries and you will need to dump the sheet immediately.

Auto ratchets will make for easyier gybing, and as I said, put a turning block in the sheet system so that you get a 180 degree wrap, and I'm sure the load will be light enough to manage with one hand.