On-going poll has one design/formula (15%) trailing Level Portsmouth with One design fleets scored out (85%)

Half the correspondants would not switch boats if Formulae/one design prevented their boat from racing. (follow up poll)



Which format wil grow cat racing in your area?

Monday night update

36 Votes Cast

1/3 for a one design formulae only world.... 2/3 for Catfight/Portsmouth with one design scoring.

Please weigh in with your vote!

Mark -it appears one poster has voted 22 times

just jokin -

Hi Mark, You keep mentioning the system used at Cat Fight but OCRA has been scoring all their races using Portsmouth in three groups of Portsmouth ranges according to the boat mix that attends for eight years now. We score ANY and ALL beach cats that show up. The first several years we scored in groups that pretty closely put 16 footers, 18 footers, and 20 footers in separate groups. In the last two years with so many Waves and now Mystere 4.3s racing, the groups are usually 14 footers, 16s and 18s, and then all other lower rating boats (a real mix including Taipan 4.9s, Inter 17Rs, 18HTs, Nacra 6.0s, Inter 20s, etc.) Then we also score ALL boats against each other for an OVERALL ranking. This keeps the top guys in each class racing hard even if they have a big lead in their own group so that they can try to beat EVERY boat! It is a great way to welcome every sailor and boat type to the events and to increase participation. (check out the results on the website at sailocra.com) I feel certain that without this system beach cat racing in this area would have mostly gone the way of Hobie Divison Ten which fizzled out several years ago. With Sail Wave scoring now, it is fairly easy to separately score one designs out from all of the above scoring if that is the desire. Cat Fight does not do an overall score; missing out on that opportunity to compare different boat types. Maybe scoring was a legitimate reason not to offer the competitors more results like this in years past, but not anymore, even at big regattas. So Portsmouth only adds to a regatta's offerings and for not much more effort. Even if only different one designs attended an event, it would be interesting to also score it in Portsmouth so that they all could see how they were doing against every other boat as well as in their own classes. It is a great way to make any regatta "bigger" and better.

Thanks Mike for the reminder
I dropped my OCRA reference somewhere along the line.

The reason for the poll is to address the consequences of the following trend.
The recent success of large turnouts for F18’s led them to be split off at CORK leaving a very small open class. The F18HT’s were split off at Va Beach leaving no open class (They went home or did not come in the first place. Barnegat scored classes with 1 boat in them as well as 3 or 4 boat classes. Is this what racers want?

I believe that OCRA and Catfight scoring would make it a great weekend for everyone and do exactly what you say. As the season winds down and regatta schedules are firmed up for next year the choices we make will push us further down the road. Which fork do people believe will grow racing in their region. Put your 2 cents in by voting.

Remember… this is NOT a poll about what you would PREFER… (I would prefer to join a club with 25 active Tornado racers in a nice windy area with a great yacht club) Rather it's about what will GROW PARTICIPATION in cat racing in your area.


Currently the votes favor OCRA/CATFIGHT 60 to 40 over a one design program for growing participation.

As Mike mentions, one can do a class within a portsmouth handicapped group. CRAC has done this as well. It actually is a little more expensive as you add to the trophy count, but a sailor has two shots at a trophy; who would argue against that? I don't think anyone would argue that level racing is more fun when you can visually see how you're doing, but the realities are as Mark said, with more splintering of a limited number of racers into different boats, we may have no option but to go handicap racing.
David

I would probably enjoy that kind of double scored racing on the water but... (I've brought up this argument before in the past) ... I would get frustrated if a Hobie 20 started covering me when I'm trying to chase down a 6.0 - my focus is class racing. It's probably not that big of a deal but I've heard others say it before too.

-

These basic aspects of racing should not be opposites or exclusionary in either direction as mistakenly presented but should be set up to be integral and constructively work with one another, -- class and rated racing if we are to really set up a benificial functional accepted stardard for race stucture that is integral with class structure that will help {grow and promote the sport }.

If a rating system can not develop ,change and grow with the sport and obvious direction it is taking then like so many dead boat classes of the by-product of the system it currently helps produce ,- it too should go the same way ,-

The real problem is not growing development and the preference for Formula Classes as acknowledged ,-the real problem is a non-intergral often disfuctional rating system.

Simpily stated again ,it needs to develop and change and grow -base the rating system to be intergral and compatable with basic box rule CONCEPTS of design measurement rating of Length Weight and Sail area WHICH A-Class AND ALL DEVLOPMENT CLASSES ARE BASED IN as the foundation of rating ,then add times as a check or indicating factor .
It will take some time and work to develop correctly but the benifits over time are the best way to really help promote and grow the sport.

By continueing non integral contrary displaced concepts within the sport inherant in the current rating system that now serve to divide factions within that have proven detrimental in numerous ways and that a better type of rating system can readily replace with all the same benifits as reason given for its existance then it is time to grow and promote a better form of rating to benifit all .

Jake stay on point

I don’t care what you personally LIKE... In your opinion What racing format will increase cat racing in your area!



Are you saying the chance that a Hobie 20 would cover your Nacra 6.0 at an event like the Catfight is a deterent to participating and in your view such a format would not grow racing participation in your area?

I should hope that you care what I, and other sailors personally like...that is what your asking. After all, if I (and a signficant portion of other sailors) don't like it then it couldn't possibly help grow the sport. I am merely pointing out a counter point to that form of racing and counterpoints may help to shed some light on weaknesses in systems like this so we can make it better - my intentions were to be constructive in nature but I now realize and apologize for how negative it appeared.

What I am saying is that if those events happened that it would bother me on the race course (and I am assuming that my opinion would be shared by a moderate percentage of other class racers). However, it probably would not deter me from racing in the event (and besides, had I sailed well, the H20 shouldn't have had a chance to cover me in the first place). Chances are that it would rarely even come into play.

I agree that it will probably help grow the sport and foster more future racers and I support such a format. It provides newbies a format in which they can learn a lot quickly. Let's face it, The race organizers are on the wrong end of the stick to convince anyone to give up their boat for a more popular item to grow certain classes. We should find a way to adapt in order to grow our sport utilizing the variety of boats out there today and this sounds like a good way to get going. Besides, I've never raced this way (yet) and I shouldn't knock it until I've tried it.

Hi David

Take a look at the CBYRA NOR for the three day race week over Labor Day


The alternative classes are one of many PHRF bands.

In Div 11... this policy would mean that Hobie 18's 20's, Tigers or F18's and everything but Hobie 16's and 17's would have exclusively raced in a portsmouth class from New York City to Virginia Beach .... in recent memory.

My point is that they CBYRA Race official's don't "wish" for a turnout... If you don't have the entries.... see you in PHRF. Most importantly.. you, the racer, know what to expect on the upcoming weekend.... You are not disappointed on Saturday morning because you have a competitive PHRF race to compete in that weekend.

Minimally, We must put clarity back into our racing structure for cats. The racer must know with certainty that they will have a competitive race to participate in on the weekend or they will find other things to do with their time.

Take Care
Mark

Now this is making more sense. If you increase the number of boats required to make a class for one-design racing, you will not only end up with a much bigger Portsmouth class, you will save a lot of money on trophies.

We have used a method of sailing different classes / boats with varying handicaps at club level quite successfully, it goes something like this :
We take the handicap rating for a boat/group of boats, and calculate it`s corrected time in a 1 hour race. We then do that with all classes / boats at the event, before racing starts. We can then determine how much time each the faster boats would give the slower boats in 1 hour, we then have staggered starts at the time intervals calculated, so congestion at the start line with boats that rate differently to you shouldn`t happen. The Race Officer then lets us race for an hour, doing as many laps as it takes. Class winners can be scored separately, for the purists. The nice thing is it turns into a pursuit race, and if well-run can lead to some very exciting finishes, with all the congestion at the finish line ! This way the spinnaker boats start last, and have to catch up to the fleet. Also means that the faster boats don`t have to wait around for the last finishers for too long before the next starting sequence gets under way. It ain`t perfect, but it`s fun, and fun is what makes people sail.

I agree with Mark here.

I voted Pn racing as the way to grow my participation in my neck of the woods and we have a sizable F18 presence here that easily makes the cut-off of 10 boats.

I too would love all to buy F16's so that I can race class but is just not realistic and to be honest this attitude would also be a bit arrogant and egoistic.

With Mark I believe that participation is revived with new cat sailors and not be zero sum class games and certainly not by calling new sailors in the PN class "nothing more than obstacles on the course"

fact of the matter is that new sailors buy what they can get for a decent prices and this is often a cat out of the dead class society. Without catering for them in a PN way and concentration on making this class fun we will never grow these sailors into to the more expensive one-design or formula classes. That is reality.

The worst you can do is to make the PN fleet a waste basket of unwanted sailors where a tornado is forced to race a H14 only because he isn't allowed to measure himself against 5 boats of a certain 18 and 20 foot length.

I think alot of organiser have it wrong. The event should be PN by default and only do a one-design/formula start when this class organises the event themselfs (nationals etc) or when they really have a number worth considering a seperate start for. The Number 5 is NOT that number. 10 comes closer;

Sadly to focus is now on getting 5 boats on the beach (not even on the water) and the shoove everybody who was not lucky enought to choose the rigth class (who determines this ?) into the "oohh yeah, we got that crap of everything class too that we have to start"


Wouter

A tactic used overhere is to seperate the fleet into two classes. One with a rating of 110 or more under Texel (P18, H16, P16 , Dart 18's , Nacra 5.0 etcs) and one with a rating of 110 or less (F-20, F18's, nacra 6.0 etc + all spi boats)

Sometimes we start together sometimes we have two starts. Boat race handicap in their group and boats with more than 1o boats get a seperate Formula / one-design listing in the end results.

If you get covered by a Prindle 18 with spi when you're on a Nacra 6.0 then you sailed badly to begin with And you need only to blame yourself. And if you can't sail yourself clear of him then you're not much of a sailor anyway. I really don't see the difference by being covered by a baot of different make who sailed alot better or a trailing boat of the same make because you sailed badly as well. Okay YOU think you deserve a better placing but the reality is that you don't.

Now mostly these worst case scenarios don't happen. Covering a Nacra 6.0 on a P18 is stupid; you both loose speed hindering eachother and teh P18 has already won because of the handicap calculations. Chances are that the P18 will just have to keep his noose clean to won over the nacra 6.0. nacra 6.0 needs to gain alot of time on the P18 and therefor the most likely outcome is that the N6.0 will tack away and the P18 will stay on his course and choose clean air and free way over tacking to cover the N6.0. The P18 may eventually tack to to make sure that he is sailing in the same winds as the N6.0 when both are ahead in the fleet and fighting for a high placing. But this is not covering in the OD sense; it is hedging your chances and it does not require to be in close proximity of the N6.0; just to be in same area.

Personally I don't give much credit to a winner in a class of 5 O-D boats; I respect more a winner in a class of 25 PN boats.

I do think that splitting the PN fleet in bands is a good way to make PN sailing alot more fair. I mean A P16 can trully cover a H16 as their speeds are so close together. Wind changes or wave condition pretty much affect the two boats in the same way.


Wouter

I don't think anybody would argue against Portsmouth racing being the best (and in most cases the ONLY) way to "grow cat racing in your area". It is the policy that has been in effect in many parts of the country for years. It was about 10 years ago that, at my suggestion, our Hobie fleet in Miami was converted into an open organization named CABB (Catamaran Association of Biscayne Bay) so we could include ALL types of catamarans. All of our racing has been on Portsmouth ever since, and the club has been gradually growing again as a result.

OCRA, which has larger numbers of boats, expanded and improved upon this by dividing into high and low Portsmouth divisions. CRAM had probably been doing that long before. So all this is nothing new. Except for Hobie fleets that still have strong one-design classes and are still adhering to the NAHCA policies, most people agree that Portsmouth racing is very important to the success of regattas.

It also is nothing new for various classes of similar speeds to be started together -- including one-design classes starting with Portsmouth classes.

Here is the difference in Mark's concept:
Normally the one-design classes are racing for trophies within their one-design classes and the Portsmouth fleets are racing for trophies within their Portsmouth divisions, even if they all start together. You are aware of what boats you are racing against right from the outset.

Mark's stance is that he wants to see the BIG regattas, like Spring Fever and Tradewinds, to use the same scoring format as Catfight, which scores and trophies one-design fleets but also scores and trophies everybody for overall Portsmouth trophies. He says this makes it possible for people to decide whether they want to race the other boats in their one-design fleet or race for the Portsmouth trophies. THAT is where the problem comes in, because how does anybody in the race know whom them are racing against? If you think you are in a one-design fleet, you have no way of knowing whether the other boats in your one-design fleet have decided to race against you or race for the Portsmouth trophies. And the Portsmouth sailors also have no way of knowing whether some of the boats from one-design fleets are racing them or racing the others in their particular one-design fleet. And people's motivations may change in mid-stream in the regatta -- "Oh, I'm not doing well in my one-design fleet, so I think I will start trying for a Portsmouth trophy instead." How do you plan your tactics when you don't know who your competitors are?

When Mark first started his campaign to get other major regattas to adopt the Catfight formula, I talked to the Catfight organizer, and he said he does not recommend that format for other major regattas. He also said it is very labor intensive for the race committee and requires a lot of people, because of the need to take times on every boat in the regatta rather than just the open class boats.

This is not as simple as Mark makes it sound. I, for one, want to know who my competitors are.

Maybe if the regatta is done entirely on Portsmouth and so you base your strategy on going as fast as you can around the course and ignore tactics within your one-design fleet -- i.e., just sail your own race -- and then, after the fact, break out the results within the one-design fleets and award trophies for those fleets -- MAYBE the one-design results would be the same as if they were racing each other instead of on Portsmouth. I don't know, but it just seems to me that all it measures is the relative speeds of the boats around the course rather than their racing skills and tactical abilities (so the one-design trophies would be relatively meaningless).

But maybe those things are not important any more.

Mark,

The crux of your question is how to get more people to come out and grow the sport. We keep droping into an argument around whats the best format PN, Formula etc, instead of how to get more participation.

The core group that raced in the glory days got old, had kids etc. How can we get those people to come back out and get their kids into sailing. These people raced,are familiar with it and would fit right in.

The other demographic for increased participation is new people who have never sailed or raced before. This group does not know formats and learning how to sail is much more important than sysmantic arguments over systems and numbers. My experience is that those conversations tend to scare off the newbie before they even start.

The core racers are going to come because they are already hooked. The system has to be fun for the rest of them. Years ago I got into racing because the local fleet invited me over when I was at the lake, fed me beer, and threw a great party. I knew nothing about racing and I did not care. Now I am a racing adict. BUT, I go to events for the social aspect as well. If there is not a gathering, party, etc and only a race, I do not care how great the competition, it is not worth packing up the family, kids, sitters and stuff to attend.

If there is enough attendance, the grouping for the race will sort themselves out. In the short term, we will never get rid of all the inequities, but have to maintain the flexibility to try and avoid gouping the lone 6.0 with the lone Wave in the lost boat fleet. Put the board boats together and like, modify the scoring. It means a little more work for the commitee, but with computers its not that bad.

Sail fun

Matt

Exactly Mar ,-most people in any sport want a true test of skill -sailing skill ,-,
from ISAF RATINGS http://www.schrs.com/

The ISAF regognizes the benifits of class racing .The tremendous benifit and including builder dealer support and the sence and CONSISTANT principles of {fair equal racing } as set forth in rule 2 of ISAF rules of racing established base ideal of sport that allows fair competition of sailors and builders of the craft they race as development classes now provide .

P RATED racing is a handicap type --thus inferior ,-giving advantage to lesser sailed boats by lesser skilled sailors in lesser competitive class or brand types.

INCLUDING ALL TYPES OF CAT DESIGN that wish to race is very important at events , How best to accomplish this and accept all the diverse design types while upholding the consistant principles of fair equal racing is really the question to ask .-Historically H-class has had the majority of boats ,at one time an estimated 80% of cats raced were H -that has changed and most sailing organizations now need the added numbers from numerous builders -that continues to change as Mary noted per examples but still exists . The best means of integrating seperate brand groups is again through principles of fair equal sailing that development and Formula Class racing provides and is already accomplishing for the bettermeant of the sport and longterm benifit of all concerned . OD-racers of many classes used to class only racing will not accept a Handicap alternative but will enthusiastically race in a Formula type or level class . Realistically and from numerous commentary on the forums these areas hold the most interest by far and ARE growing partisipation in the sport and will continue in growing numbers well into the future .


Its not a question of choose one as some attempt to narrowly and mistakenly frame the problem at hand within the sport in N A which has declined terribley, due at least partially to misplaced handicap ideals that would continue or expand this type of direction.-This would only serve to further and continue the decline and alienate the majority of catsailors that prefer a true test of sailing skill in level class racing .

The success historically has always been around class racing because of base principles of fair sailing . Boat builders build boat types ,boatdealer get involved and invest and spend their time and effort promoting them, sailors similarly invest and get enthusiastic about them,- most with the intent of great large equal fair class racing . All the catsailors who have purchased numerous OD and this year, numerous Formula 18s -Tigers -NF-18s -Mysteres ,-etc -The 18hts and Jav2 -F-16s -A-Class cats and through the list in numerous OD all are expecting great class racing events in growing class groups ,-most now by numerous varied builders ,-not one brand type.
The reality IS this is already growing and promoting the future of the sport and is the direction it is naturally taking . COMMON SENCE AND LOGIC would indicate an understanding and recognition of this and a more intergral supportive roll and means of rating cat design to assist and help BUILD THESE BASE RACING GROUPS and classify others through the basics of Length -sail area -weight in formula which in turn classify them into inclusive fair equal racing groups based on design . Basically we need a better means of CLASSIFICATION OF RACING GROUPS ,-

Mary noted that catsailors need to know thier classification to race . Using design measurement in Length category is ideal and easily understood -14 -16- 18 -20 and unlimited class ,-based on existing F-classifications , This allows all boats design parameters and serves to frame an understanding or a beginning to understand design and its effects on boat speed and handling ,-This in turn allows catsailors the opportunity to modify the thousands of existing boats now owned or available with new sq top main and or a spin snuffer system to rate equally in Length category as well as purchase new development and Formula based cats .-If a catsailor adds more sail or other design speed factors as lightweight they in accordance with design measurement rating move up to the next Length category in starts . If a particular class has very large numbers as a matter of practicality they have their own start with a B classification in L category ,just as large class events did at one time . In the other extreme scenario it is a matter of getting a min 5 or 7 in Length category to show if not they move into the next group. Class groups should be scored seperately but start in equal design rating L category again unless large numbers or practical reasons require a seperate start.
Developing rating by modifying current P Rating and integrating it with improved design measurement rating to work within the principles of fair equal racing in promoting equal racing groups intergral with development classes will certainly benifit the sport long term much more than the proposed framed continued concessions exacted by the mistaken direction P-rating concepts now want to lead.
P RATING expanded further will only continue to alienate and divide segments within the sport leading to more seperate type and brand events only , the oposite of its wishfull intent.
Efforts should be focussed on recognizing the direction the sport is taking ,and as Jake noted what sailors really do prefer. It is about providing what racing sailors prefer and what will bring them out to race , If any look it is level racing classes ,development classes and Formula groups.
P Rating requires continued misdirected concessions be made in racing contrary to the preferences and ideals of most,attempts to expand it and the inherant problems of continueing or expanding a timed handicap rating system are the wrong course to take .

We need to observe the success of development -Formula and level rating type classes over the years ,-overseas and now finally here and act integrally and constructively with it to build promote and grow the sport.

Hi Matt and Mary


Portsmouth versus formula/one design are alternative policy choices that a club makes for a regatta and for their region's racing schedule. It is one of the things that we have control of. I believe that this choice affects the long-term growth of the sport of cat racing. I respect everyone's opinion about what they like, however I agree with Matt that this is not the debate. Which is " What program decision by your fleet will grow the sport?".

With respect to who we are targeting for growth:
A new racer could care less about these details, (so long as they feel that they fit in and have a chance of success). Returning racers would love to recreate the good ol days but are in for a shock at the changes that time has wrought around the country. In either case, the policy's we implement as fleets matter if we hope to get these folks into the game.

Mary states that there is a broad consensus about Portsmouth racing growing fleet participation and points to CRAB and OCRA as groups that have successfully reversed the decline. However, I certainly don't see such a consensus or see that it's reflected in the regattas that are run in much of the country. In fact the poll is running at just 60 /40 in favor of Portsmouth/Catfight/OCRA... A strong result favoring Portsmouth but certainly not a consensus.

We face a bit of a paradox.... IF one class grows (or remains strong) and segregates off as a separate racing group E.G. F18HT's ... the similar boats in their region e.g. I20's are left with too few boats to race against and so they soon stop racing.

The policy that your fleet implements address the paradox.
If your policy favor's one design/formula racing... then the I20 racers will be forced to change boats to play and join the HT racers or limp along with a couple of boats in the "all but dead class".
(Most of the time they would not meet a reasonable threshold of 7 boats for a start in organizations like CBYRA.)

The alternative policy is that you race them together ala OCRA/Catfight,

Mary has nicely stated my argument favoring changes to events like Tradewinds, and Spring Fever and the many regional regattas that we run as well as her personal evaluation of the limitations inherent in a OCRA/ Catfight format.

Its True that scoring is more work... It’s not true that it’s overwhelming. CBYRA regattas score 150 yachts on finish time using PHRF. Our current software, Sailwave can manage the job quite nicely.

It's true that the racing game is different when you compete in two classes simultaneously. It is not the same as one design. For her, it’s confusing and not worthwhile. Many others disagree and I point to the Catfight regatta that seems to be increasing in participation year after year. Mike Fahle's summary of the positives that OCRA has realized balance Mary's issue with... "Just whom are you racing" and her opinion that "tactics are completely lost" which was debated by others in this thread.

Where does your fleet stand and what are the reasons for your policy?

Most importantly, No matter what, Please make sure your fleet clearly spells out how you will organize the racing. I quoted the example from CBYRA race week. "7 boats pre registered by X or you are in a Portsmouth division” Clarity is crucial in this game. You know what to expect if you commit the time and money to go racing in this event. NOR's that list classes for every Hobie ever made with no realistic hope for ever getting an adequate turnout plus open class simply perpetuate 4 boat racing classes with 3 deep in trophies. Mary clearly stated her preference... 3 of anything is better then 15 on Portsmouth /OCRA /Catfight.

What's your fleet's choice? What would you like to see for next year?

Comments welcome!

Take Care
Mark

I agree with Mary. I'd rather race against a few in one-design than 15 under Portsmouth.
You already know how I feel about portsmouth. It can serve as a great excuse as to why you didn't win. With one-design there is no excuse. If you lose, its not because they sailed a number beating boat, it is because the other Skipper/Team was just plain better than you.

As far fleet policies. I'm not sure I follow you there. Why would a club limit themselves by stating a scoring preference? I'd rather see what we get then sort it out at the Skipper's meeting.

I hope you don't lose much sleep at night over this subject, Mark.
So, when are we going to see you out on the water again? I think the last time I saw you sail was Spring fever two years ago. Are you protesting the manner in which clubs score their classes by going on a "Sail Strike" or something?

Tracie